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Firelands
gatherer
Username: Firelands
Post Number: 189
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 01, 2005 - 7:18 pm: |     |
When I was a kid I read a story that involved a sailor being bit by a cobra. Assuming he was good as dead, the crew tossed him into the hold where it was hot and humid. Several hours later, the bitten crew man emerged weak and very dehydrated, but alive, apparently having survived by quickly sweating out the venom before it killed him. I've been searching on-line all morning trying to find this account or to learn if such a thing is plausible. Anybody here have any idea? |
Da_bear
flint knapper
Username: Da_bear
Post Number: 596
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 01, 2005 - 10:53 pm: | |
I cannot give you specific information, but as a lifelong handler of reptiles, many of whom were poisonous, I don't buy it.
A cobra's venom is so dangerous, that even pros who handle them can die when the antivenom is available and handled by a professional. The main problem is the anti is just as dangerous as the venom, and the cobra, being a rear fanged snake, does not always envenomate the bite. So, one must be sure one is dying before one can take the anti, and then in small amounts so there will not be so much as to kill by an overdose of antivenom. The trick is to almost die, and stay there until the body cures the problem itself. Too little and you could die, and too much will kill you.
My personal bet is, if the story is true, the person did not get envenomated.
I'll stick to my moccasins, rattlers and occasional coral snake myself, they aren't really dangerous by comparison. In fact, they are kinda cool pets.
http://www.emedicine.com/emerg/topic544.htm
Not all snakebites result in envenomation. In the case of cobras, the percentage of blank bites may be quite high, 45% in one series of 47 cases from Malaysia. In another series, 1 of 3 snake charmers bitten by large king cobras showed no signs of envenomation.
Same article:
History: The onset of symptoms and signs following a cobra bite can be extremely variable.
Immediate, local pain (almost always present)
Soft tissue swelling (may be progressive)
Neurologic findings, which may begin early and be rapidly progressive (in anecdotal cases, victims have suffered respiratory arrest in a matter of minutes) or may be delayed in onset as long as 24 hours
Alteration of mental status (eg, drowsiness, occasionally with euphoria)
Complaints related to cranial nerve dysfunction, such as ptosis (often one of the earliest neurotoxic findings), ophthalmoplegia, dysphagia, and dysphasia
Profuse salivation, nausea, vomiting, and abdominal pain
Paresis of neck and jaw muscles and generalized muscular weakness followed by flaccid paralysis
Shortness of breath, respiratory failure (muscular paresis and accumulated secretions)
Chest pain or tightness
Eye pain, tearing, blurred vision (with eye exposure to venom from spitting cobras)
Physical:
Impending respiratory failure
Respiratory distress or weakness
Cyanosis
Neurologic dysfunction
Altered mental status
Ptosis (may be the earliest sign of systemic toxicity)
Generalized weakness or paralysis
Cardiovascular collapse
Hypotension
Tachycardia or bradycardia
Soft tissue edema
Signs of necrosis usually appear within 48 hours of the bite.
The area around the fang punctures darkens.
Blistering may follow.
Necrosis is usually confined to the skin and subcutaneous tissue but may be quite extensive.
A putrid smell is characteristic.
Acute inflammation of the eye follows venom-spitting exposure and is characterized by ocular congestion, edema of the conjunctiva and cornea, and a whitish discharge.
If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice. |
Firelands
gatherer
Username: Firelands
Post Number: 190
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 02, 2005 - 3:41 am: | |
Thanks, Da Bear. Do you think the same is true of all snake bites? I did exchange emails with a herpetologist who basically said the same thing, but was still wondering if there was some shred of truth anywhere in the story. |
Da_bear
flint knapper
Username: Da_bear
Post Number: 598
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 02, 2005 - 3:57 am: | |
US vipers bites that might work on. If I were bitten by a small diamondback, or a medium cottomouth, my first goal would be to sit down and slow the blood flow. I already know I am not allergic, so I would, most likely, get very, very, sick, have some liver damage, and live. Us viper envemonmate at almost 100% rates, so that hope is nil.
Of course, a hospital and antivenom would come in handy also.
Most US vipers are designed to kill 3kg rabbits, not big people.
I understand Oz's snakes pretty much have massively fast venom in large amounts. Best not get bitten, but that's good advice when handling a ANY snake.
If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice. |
Ted
gatherer
Username: Ted
Post Number: 139
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 02, 2005 - 7:11 am: | |
From:
http://www.cobras.org/cob_3.htm
--------In terms of their effects, however, they may be broadly categorized as hemotoxic (damaging blood vessels and causing hemorrhage) or neurotoxic (paralyzing nerve centers that control respiration and heart action); they may also contain agents that promote or prevent blood clotting. Sometimes a combination of these effects is involved, however, and variations may occur within genera or even within species. ----------
Reading that it seems to me that sweating is not going to do you a whole lot of good.
Ted
Do not go gentle into that good night...Rage, rage against the dying of the light |
Ted
gatherer
Username: Ted
Post Number: 140
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 02, 2005 - 7:18 am: | |
-------I understand Oz's snakes pretty much have massively fast venom in large amounts. Best not get bitten, ------
Yes, most are pretty nasty. I once read that out of the top ten deadliest snakes, Oz has nine of them.
On my place I've got tiger snakes, brown snakes, and red belly black snakes (in different territories) and one sighting of a death adder.
You are never more than 100 metres from a snake in vegetated (trees and grass) areas of Oz.
I don't walk around the paddock in bare feet.
Ted
Do not go gentle into that good night...Rage, rage against the dying of the light |
Firelands
gatherer
Username: Firelands
Post Number: 191
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 02, 2005 - 3:50 pm: | |
Plus you have funnel webs, crocs, and great white sharks. Here in the Pacific NW we've got deadly moss, which if you stand still for a decade or so, will cover you from head to toe. It's very frightening.
Thanks for the snake info. This was to be a plot point in my novel, but I see I'll have to tweak it some. My snake is an asp, not a cobra, and I think my explanation will be envenomation didn't occur. |
Sweetsunray
storyteller
Username: Sweetsunray
Post Number: 463
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 02, 2005 - 5:45 pm: | |
 Alas, no snakes in my story. Ireland didn't have any snakes, even 800BC.
I think I used to know why... but can't find any info on that anymore.
Everyone has a motive for giving arguments. But only the arguments given matter. |
Sweetsunray
storyteller
Username: Sweetsunray
Post Number: 464
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 02, 2005 - 5:59 pm: | |
ok found it ...
Some argue itmight have been the temperature, but they don't know that Ireland once was warmer than it is now, and even now it's still temperate, just wet, comparable to Belgium, and we've got adders.
But here's an interesting article on it.
http://www.txtwriter.com/Onscience/Articles/patsna kes.html
Basically says that the prehistoric snakes 100 million years ago, never reached Ireland because it was under water during the Cretaucius (like most of western Europe). (Apparently the prehistoric snakes are of the python and constrictor type)
Of course, when that part of the world dried and became land, the more evolved snakes reached the areas. And then, yes, they most certainly reached Ireland. But were unable to survive, when 1.8 million years ago during the Pleistocene ice covered most of Northern Europe it covered Ireland fully.
Once the ice had receded from Ireland 15,000 years ago, the only way to reach it was through the icy cold waters of the North Sea and its channel. An untakable barrier for snakes. It's the same case for New Zealand. They don't have any snakes there either.
Everyone has a motive for giving arguments. But only the arguments given matter. |
Matt
hunter
Username: Matt
Post Number: 226
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 02, 2005 - 6:45 pm: | |
Interesting idea. Of course, any Irish-American Catholic can tell you that 'twas Saint Patrick who drove all the snakes out of Ireland.
"Gentlemen! You can't fight in here, this is the War Room!" - from Dr. Strangelove |
Da_bear
flint knapper
Username: Da_bear
Post Number: 599
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 02, 2005 - 6:55 pm: | |
Ted: You are never more than 100 metres from a snake in vegetated (trees and grass) areas of Oz.
That's probably true in any suburban or rural area in the US. BUT, the VAST majority are not only nonpoisonous, but lack teeth sufficient to break the skin.
A different order of danger, entirely.
Worm snakes, garters, grass snakes, and dozens of others inhabit the mulch in flower beds. Worm snakes cannot even bite, and only the largest of the rest can pierce the skin of a normal human. Even so, I have seen them cause utter terror when sighted. 
As a young man, I saw a corn snake, a lovely little creature of banded earth tones, quite harmless. My friend saw it when I pointed it out, turned to run for his life, and stuck his face directly into an oak tree, a substantial one. It didn't give much.
The snake must have been quite confused. Here were two big humans, about 11-12yo, and one was bleeding from the lips and nose, cracked teeth, and the other was rolling on the ground unable to breath, I was laughing so hard. 
Its the most harm I have personally seen done to a human by a snake, and the snake never touched anyone.
If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice. |
Miisa
flint knapper
Username: Miisa
Post Number: 642
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 02, 2005 - 7:57 pm: | |
"It is well-known that St Patrick banished the snakes from Ireland. Less publicised is that he also banished kangaroos, polar bears and Vietnamese pot-bellied pigs, all of which were regarded as nuisances by the early Irish Christians."
Ireland for beginners |
Rhi
hunter
Username: Rhi
Post Number: 291
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 03, 2005 - 8:30 am: | |
"Here in the Pacific NW we've got deadly moss, which if you stand still for a decade or so, will cover you from head to toe. It's very frightening. "
 Not the deadly moss! I try to forget it. It's the only thing I fear here. (I'm a Pacific NWer, too, hi neighbor!)
"It is well-known that St Patrick banished the snakes from Ireland. Less publicised is that he also banished kangaroos, polar bears and Vietnamese pot-bellied pigs, all of which were regarded as nuisances by the early Irish Christians."
Well, I'll be darned, I had no idea, Miis! What an informative site!
bear, that story is priceless!
Mostly Harmless |
Annie
storyteller
Username: Annie
Post Number: 1272
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 03, 2005 - 9:17 am: | |
Yeah, thanks for that link, Miisa! I was particularly impressed by the tip on the correct answer to questions about religion. It is a most profound one, and I will try to keep it in mind! 
ATTENTION! We are (definitely) planning to open a Procrastinators' Club! Sometime... Chess is the purest form of debate, unadulterated by a topic. |
dave c (Unregistered Guest)
visitor
| | Posted on Sunday, April 03, 2005 - 5:46 am: | |
This is for "Dr" Bear. Lets get a few things straight. First of all, Cobras are elapids. They are not rear-fanged snakes like the boomslang. Second, while antivenom DOES have side effects it is no where near as dangerous as a bad snake bite. Go pick up a black mamba and we will see if you are reticent to have antivenom administered to you. As far as the *docile* coral snakes you supposedly are fond of handling... I doubt that you have ever even picked up a garder snake. If you were actually a herp you would know that coral snake venom is roughly equivalent in potency to many cobras. They just so happen to be elusive and incapable of penetrating certain areas of human skin. Your also wrong about viper envenomation rates in the U.S. P.S. Please don't include anymore stupid epigrams by Rush. Unless you are 12 years old in which case its excusable. |
Scott
flint knapper
Username: Scott
Post Number: 879
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, April 03, 2005 - 6:03 am: | |
dave c, get stuffed. bear did not indicate that coral snakes were docile. I can confirm that bear has done a little bit more with snakes, than merely pick them up. I didn't notice any stats on envenomation rates. Where are your refsπ
Scott
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Ces gens, Jondalar, ils sourient. Ils me sourient. - Ayla |
Ted
gatherer
Username: Ted
Post Number: 190
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, April 03, 2005 - 7:04 am: | |
---------Please don't include anymore stupid epigrams by Rush. Unless you are 12 years old in which case its excusable.----------
I guess we've all got freewill.
And you obviously believe that blame is better to give than receive.
Maybe you're a secret Neil Peart fan too.
Ted
Do not go gentle into that good night...Rage, rage against the dying of the light |
Cavebear
flint knapper
Username: Cavebear
Post Number: 1920
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, April 03, 2005 - 6:14 pm: | |
LOL! Maybe there should be an 8th grade reading comprehension test for unregistered visitors.
The speed of time is 3,600 seconds per hour... |
Da_bear
flint knapper
Username: Da_bear
Post Number: 642
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Monday, April 04, 2005 - 12:25 am: | |
Thanks folks.
dave c, I will freely admit my last formal training of snake taxa was almost thirty years ago. If the families have been split I don't see it as a big deal.
However, if you would like to refute the stats, please show some proof. As to my source being unacceptable, again, rather than disdain, have you a valid, provable reason to hold this disdain.
I'll stick to my moccasins, rattlers and occasional coral snake myself, they aren't really dangerous by comparison.
I would also like you to not to read words I have not said. I am fully aware of the coral snake's reputation. If you will look up Thomasville, Georgia, you fill find it smack dab in its natural range.
BTW, the coral snake is relatively docile, now, I have said it. I have been horrified to have people bring up snakes at my school, having played with their "scarlet king" over the weekend, only to have the correct ID given. Of course, the snake was not being friendly, it is a reptile after all, but simply not wasting precious venom when not being hurt, and, of course, the snake can only envenomate when certain parts of the body are bitten. due to its size and fang location. The venom, as you have said, is highly toxic.
I patiently await your evidence as to the uselessness of my source, and for support of your comments.
If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice. |
Michael Richards (Unregistered Guest)
visitor
| | Posted on Thursday, April 20, 2006 - 10:38 pm: | |
My Grandson came to me asking about snakes..."Grandpa, were their dinosaur snakes?
Not remembering of ever hearing of prehistoric snakes...other than the Bible, or legged Dinosaurs I had to tell him I would find out for both of us..
So I ask...Were there Dinosaurs that were snakes and what is the oldest snake found?
Thanks for any info... |
Ted
hunter
Username: Ted
Post Number: 417
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, April 20, 2006 - 11:01 pm: | |
I am not an expert, but I found this at:
http://www.enchantedlearning.com/subjects/reptiles /snakes/printouts.shtml
quote:Snakes first appeared during the late Cretaceous period (about 95 million years ago), towards the end of the time of the dinosaurs (the dinosaurs lived from about 225 to 65 million years ago). So the late dinosaurs, like T. rex and Triceratops were around when the first snakes evolved.
I understand that snakes and dinosaurs evolved from the same reptilian ancestor.
Ted
Do not go gentle into that good night...Rage, rage against the dying of the light
Benjamin Disraeli: "The Jews are a nervous people. Nineteen centuries of Christian love have taken a toll." |
Da_bear
flint knapper
Username: Da_bear
Post Number: 818
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 2:36 pm: | |
The entire article is rather interesting about snake evolution and this recent discovery's impact on the various theories.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/04/04 19_060419_snake_hips.html
An ancient snake with hips connected to its spine might be proof that slithery serpents originated on land, not in the water, a new fossil find reveals.
The fossil snake—which has a primitive pelvis and robust, functional legs outside the ribcage—dates from about 90 million years ago.
If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice. |
Cavebear
cave painter
Username: Cavebear
Post Number: 2590
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 9:34 pm: | |
Without having a source for this (just from personal knowledge), it seems to me that snakes are rather far removed from dinosaurs.
First, the earliest known snakes are much later than the earliest dinosaurs.
Second, snakes and dinosaurs both seem to have evolved from a common reptile ancestor (but which would place that common ancestor about 130 million years before snakes evolved. That's a long time between common ancestor!
Third, that means that snakes split off from other reptiles after (or "sort of close to" the time when mammals split off.
Fourth, snakes and dinosaurs went in very different evolutionary paths. The dinosaurs enhanced their limb development (developing upright rather than splayed limbs), while snakes diminished theirs before they eliminated limbs entirely. In some ways, snakes are more different from dinosaurs and mammals than dinosaurs and mammals are from each other. Mammals may be older than snakes, though I do not know whether mammals split from dinosaurs or the older non-saurian reptiles (the non-splayed limbs are suggestive, but may have been parallel evolution).
Machiavelli was pretty devious. For a guy... |
Catfriend
gatherer
Username: Catfriend
Post Number: 127
Registered: 12-2005
| | Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 11:26 pm: | |
There are many reasons to believe dinosaurs are much more the ancestors of birds than those of snakes, and it's even not really clear whether they all were ectothermic at all. See http://www.dinoruss.com/de_4/5c51d90.htm for interesting thoughts on the subjects.
One Ring to rule them all
One Ring to find them
One Ring to bring them all
And in the Darkness bind them! |
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