| Author |
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Scott
flint knapper
Username: Scott
Post Number: 1600
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 14, 2006 - 12:31 am: |     |
Hitman, you are not causing trouble and we don't delete threads or posts here. Cavebear said it right!
Looking forward to your continued participation.
Scott
Board Co-Admin
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Ces gens, Jondalar, ils sourient. Ils me sourient. - Ayla |
Pine
flint knapper
Username: Pine
Post Number: 1278
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 15, 2006 - 8:30 am: | |
I just watched this very interesting video of Robert Wright interviewing Daniel Dennett, about belief in God or lack thereof, evolution, free will, consciousness, the afterlife and some other odds and ends. If you have a spare 70 minutes or so, enjoy.
I'm reading Dennett's "Darwin's Dangerous Idea" and between the book and the video my conclusion is that most of what philosophers do is misrepresent each other's ideas in order to justify presenting their own, but they are both insightful.
Cohen's Law: 'Unless you fail at more than 10% of the things you try, you aren't trying enough things.' |
Cavebear
cave painter
Username: Cavebear
Post Number: 3039
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 15, 2006 - 7:29 pm: | |
Pine, I have GOT to get my sound card fixed so I can listen to videos like you linked to!
On a related subject, I came across a broadcast lecture by Richard Dawkins on his newest book "The God Delusion'. It was on cable CSpan2-BookTV and I found it quite amazing. You can see some video clips of the lecture here:
http://richarddawkins.net/article,303,Reading-of-T he-God-Delusion-in-Lynchburg-VA,Richard-Dawkins--C -SPAN2
If anyone finds the whole lecture being rebroadcast, I encourage them to watch it.
Thank you, Carl Sagan... |
Scott
flint knapper
Username: Scott
Post Number: 1612
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, November 19, 2006 - 1:15 am: | |
Thanks for the links.
Pine I am inclined to agree with you. Archaeologists seem to be the same in many cases - misrepresent the other side. One big game of politics. 
Scott
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Ces gens, Jondalar, ils sourient. Ils me sourient. - Ayla |
Hitman84
gatherer
Username: Hitman84
Post Number: 69
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, November 23, 2006 - 2:37 pm: | |
Hi Scott,
I was'nt feeling well. I'm fine now, thanks for the message.
Pine,
Very interesting link.
You can find many videos of Richard Dawkins on youtube.
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Richar d+Dawkins
My Chess Blog
"Everything in the world is relative"
- Albert Einstein |
Sweetsunray
storyteller
Username: Sweetsunray
Post Number: 1131
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 23, 2006 - 10:45 pm: | |
Anyone seen the videos of Beyond Life yet? I just saw the third stream, that ends with the cosmological story. Wow! And the perspective you get from seeing the tiny speck "earth" in the arms of Saturn's rings. Just beautiful!
Everyone has a motive for giving arguments. But only the arguments given matter. |
Scott
flint knapper
Username: Scott
Post Number: 1639
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 24, 2006 - 4:38 am: | |
Makes you feel kinda small, doesn't it? 
Absolutely beautiful!
Scott
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Ces gens, Jondalar, ils sourient. Ils me sourient. - Ayla |
Pine
flint knapper
Username: Pine
Post Number: 1302
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 24, 2006 - 7:14 am: | |
I think you meant Beyond Belief 2006 SSR. I have so far watched the first 4 sessions. The Saturn pics are indeed Wow-worthy.
In session 4, I learned a few things from Hameroff's presentation, but I think many of his conclusions are lacking in justification. I suspect Dennett would have accused him of seeking skyhooks instead of cranes. And it seems Kraus who knows the physics thinks its application to the study of consciousness is BS. I think I'd like to wait and see.
Ramachandran's presentation was on more macro level of neurology (which area of the brain does what and how this is reflected in behavior) which is always fun.
In session 2, deGrasse Tyson makes his point very clearly - Intelligent Design is an approach of ignorance, it is a 'God of the gaps' approach which attempts to stop investigation in certain directions. His parallels with the history of Islamic science should be a warning for everyone. OTOH he trusts moderate Republicans to support the cause of science because they are aware of the economic implications of anti-science trends.
Cohen's Law: 'Unless you fail at more than 10% of the things you try, you aren't trying enough things.' |
Cavebear
cave painter
Username: Cavebear
Post Number: 3091
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 24, 2006 - 8:17 am: | |
I haven't seen the Beyond Belief videos yet, but I have been re-watching Carl Sagan's Cosmos series, and he does a good job of providing perspective. A different show 'The Complete Cosmos' also does a grand job, and is more up-to-date (well, it is newer).
Thank you, Carl Sagan... |
Pine
flint knapper
Username: Pine
Post Number: 1304
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 24, 2006 - 10:56 am: | |
BTW the discussion that followed Ramachandran's presentation covered some more aspects of religious experiences. John Smithies talked about the pharmacological aspects - enhanced sensitivity to serotonin induces beautiful visual images and also religious experiences (but not musical experience), dopamine induces a sensation of certainty. The guy from the Templeton Foundation talked about experiments with prayer and healing - he personally is happy with the negative outcomes from these experiments, as he thinks the approach that prayer could be a testable means to influence reality trivialises prayer.
There was mention of the televised experiment in which Dawkins failed to have a religious/mystical experience induced by transcranial magnetic stimulation (intended to create a right temporal lobe seizure, which induces such experiences in 80% of subjects). Some interesting points: Dawkins said that at the same time a vicar was also undergoing the same procedure. The vicar also claimed to have no experience, but the EEG showed the pattern that matches induced seizure, followed by a lot of noise. Persinger (the designer of the experiment and the equipment) interpreted the vicar's reaction as deliberate resistance.
Dawkins (and Ramachandran) suggested that he was physically incapable of responding to that kind of stimulation. However, in an interview with Jonathan Miller in 2003 (which can be found in the link provided by Hitman) Dawkins describes how as an adolescent he used to go alone to chapel at school to pray, and he would have visions of angels. So did his deconversion at 17 change the function of his right temporal lobe?
Also an interesting exchange between a religious guy (someone from political science who is incorporating some neuroscience in his research) describing a religious experience, and relating that as a researcher he is driven by discomfort with the unknown - vs Ann Druyan who thinks scientists are attracted to the unknown and seek to be in its presence.
(And some comic relief from Sam Harris - while explaining to the guy from Templeton that he feels about the Abrahamic god the way the former feels about Poseidon, Harris relates getting hate mail from pagans for denigrating their deities - no, not everyone knows what it feels like to be atheist with respect to Poseidon.)
Cohen's Law: 'Unless you fail at more than 10% of the things you try, you aren't trying enough things.' |
Cavebear
cave painter
Username: Cavebear
Post Number: 3103
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, November 26, 2006 - 12:09 am: | |
I wish I had been part of that! LOL!
Thanks for the info...
Thank you, Carl Sagan... |
Sweetsunray
storyteller
Username: Sweetsunray
Post Number: 1134
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, November 26, 2006 - 7:36 pm: | |
Pine, Tyson's presenation was great! Saturn Lady's was awesome. Hameroff's was interesting but hard to follow. The questions
I'm planning to read more on quantum physics, to be able to get a grip on the concepts. He may have a point there that something else (quantum physically ) than computational neurons alone may be at work in the brain. But then he makes this huge jump to a Jungian-like hypotheses that we tap into nature's ethical laws with our brain in that way, and hauls the gnostic mysticism into it, for which I see little proof at all.
Ramachandran was great! I could easily watch that part of the session again and again. I thought the guy of the Templeton foundation was way-off mark with his question on whether Ramachandran had found any proof that a god did not exist. I did not take Ramachandran's speech as saying there was proof of such, only him explaining the neurological findings without any need for the existence of a god (much like Laplace).
I wondered about the same thing with Dawkins. Personally, I can say that being a rate 6 atheist (I would say my degree of non-belief is comparable to that of Dawkins: I do not belief in a personal god, doubt a deistic god very much, but I have no proof of their non-existence, and am open to be shown scientific proof of it and adjust my mind accordingly) does not in any hinders me in having "god"-experiences during meditation.
What I suspect to be different between Dawkins and me on that experience regard, would be that I see value in such experiences, without necessary believing them to be more real than dreams are. It is important to let go of pure analytical thoughts imo. Dawkins probably remains in the analytical state.
Everyone has a motive for giving arguments. But only the arguments given matter. |
Pine
flint knapper
Username: Pine
Post Number: 1309
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, November 26, 2006 - 9:42 pm: | |
SSR, are you talking about Dawkins in 2003 or as an adolescent? The 2003 experiment showed no response at the EEG level, as opposed to the vicar who did likely experience something despite his denial.
Oh, the guy from the Templeton Foundation is Charles Harper.
Cohen's Law: 'Unless you fail at more than 10% of the things you try, you aren't trying enough things.' |
Sweetsunray
storyteller
Username: Sweetsunray
Post Number: 1137
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 27, 2006 - 11:35 am: | |
I know the 2003 EEG level showed nothing. I think that analytical thought can be able to prevent the onset of such an experience.
If I lie down, and never even make the first step to tell the image I think I see with my inner eye (that is even imagining there is an image), but instead keep thinking analytically, "I have my eyes closed, so I can't see aything really, and if I were to think of an image, then is it something I concuct at the spur of the moment, or is really meaningfull?" etc... then I'll never start my journey.
The vicar originally may have wanted to let go, but then started to fight it, and I think try to reason away... This has happened sometimes with some people invited on our meditations. They see and experience something, but start to doubt everything, or fear to be confronted with something.
Everyone has a motive for giving arguments. But only the arguments given matter. |
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Mythology and Religion 
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