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Firelands
gatherer
Username: Firelands
Post Number: 125
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 01, 2004 - 5:47 am: |     |
Here is something I got to wondering about over Thanksgiving. We had a heterosexual couple staying with us whose marriage is on the rocks. In talking with the wife she observed how frustrated she is by her husband's lack of emotional/verbal communication, desire to spend a lot of time at work, some of the more stereotypical male traits. We have also heard similar complaints from several other married women we know (and the opposite complaints from their male spouses). These comments have led my partner and I to wonder how men and women ever make a relationship work! (I know I'm speaking in gross generalizations here.)
My partner and I have our issues, but we connect on a very basic, fundamental level. We get each other in a way our straight friends don't seem to. And this got me thinking about Sawyer's Hybrid books and the way gender relations are conducted in the Neandertal world. Anyway, I was curious what you married (or committed opposite sex couples) thought of this. Does your spouse get you? Do you have to turn to outside sources to get some of your emotional needs met? (I know we all do, but I'm talking beyond the friendship stage.) |
Miisa
storyteller
Username: Miisa
Post Number: 491
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 01, 2004 - 7:01 am: | |
Tricky. I've spent ages drafting a reply, but it seems to be difficult to get anything down that is worthy of posting, LOL. But here is a ramble for you:
---These comments have led my partner and I to wonder how men and women ever make a relationship work!---
I have often wondered myself who came up with this totally illogical "marriage/relationship" idea of people of completely different genders thrown together and expected to get along. It is a recipe for disaster!
My husband and I are sufficiently much alike that it seems to work. We are both bottling-up sulkers, so neither of us are comfortable exploding with anger or having shouting-matches. If one was like that and the other was not, we would have a problem.
Communication still seems to be the problem, although we are getting better all the time. After reading John Gray's Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus, I no longer get so upset when my DH does or says something that puzzles me, and sure enough, after a while I come to see that the reason was often not what I thought it was. Women have a nasty tendency to see things as being about them if no-one will talk to them about it, while men see little reason in discussing their otherwise bad day with their wives as there is nothing she can do about it, anyway. In that sense men and women seem so different on a cognitive level that it truly is amazing that we manage to live together at all.
That said, you don't pick whom you become attracted to, and frankly, I'm not sure I would get all that well along with other women much either (I have three sisters, so it isn't just a wild guess). Women are sometimes hard for other women to understand, too, especially for social nerds like me.
I suppose it just comes down to the same thing it always does when two people get along; acceptance. Whomever we live with, we have to make concessions and adapt to some of their ways of doing things. Having children is just as enormous a change, though it feels easier as the children start of easy and develop from there. And you can always think to yourself *Only another 16 or so years of this and they will be moving out* LOL! Perhaps if we had expiration dates for marriages we could be more laid-back about them, too.
Interesting topic, requires some more thinking on my part. |
Pine
storyteller
Username: Pine
Post Number: 761
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 01, 2004 - 7:12 am: | |
My spouse is probably the only person on the planet who gets me. I'm very introverted and don't like to let others in on my emotional life, so for me sources for support are, for the most part, either myself or him.
He is a more balanced person and not as introverted. He has a few colleagues he is close with, and he is also very close with his mother.
We have been together for 16 years. We've had our relationship troubles, and probably will have some in the future too, but we eventually sort these things out between ourselves. As long as whoever is in pain explains hir situation and the other is willing to listen and work together towards a solution there is a way.
Caveat: neither of us is much like the stereotype of either sex.
"We have something offensive for everyone. If nothing that we own offends you, please complain." - sign in a library. |
Miisa
storyteller
Username: Miisa
Post Number: 492
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 01, 2004 - 7:33 am: | |
Pine, I work in an office with 14 other women, no men at all, and I have developed a STRONG sterotype about how women behave largely from that. But it could just be a Lord of the Flies-type of a situation, they would possibly all be very different if they worked together with men.
However, it has got me thinking that an all-woman society might quickly slip into the same kind of paranoid hen-house mentality I see at work. I could never spend 24/7 there, I'd end up chewing my leg off. But then I am quite ingregarious (thanks, CB!), and, thankfully, so is my husband. We keep to ourselves both collectively and as individuals. |
Pine
storyteller
Username: Pine
Post Number: 762
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 01, 2004 - 7:52 am: | |
Both my husband and myself tend to respond to statements starting with 'women typically ...' or 'men typically ...' with 'they do?'
I have had both good and bad experiences with both women and men as co-workers. I spent a few months (a lab rotation) in a group that was, for most purposes, all women (there was one male student who was about to finish his PhD and spent most of his time elsewhere - either writing or in another lab with which he had a collaboration going). It was quite a fun place to work in, though it was hard to keep track of who was going on maternity leave when.
"We have something offensive for everyone. If nothing that we own offends you, please complain." - sign in a library. |
Miisa
storyteller
Username: Miisa
Post Number: 493
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 01, 2004 - 8:35 am: | |
Even the single man makes a difference, believe me, even if he is rarely present. We have one male cleaner that sometimes pops in and the mood is different those days. Go figure.
The bottom line (if I am still somehow following my original train of thought) is that after reading Grey, so many things suddenly made sense to me in both mine and my hubby's behaviour, even though I don't think we ever considered ourselves particularly "typical". Nothing will ever apply to everyone, but in this case, the book offered generalisations that helped. And made us realize we were, in fact, more typical than we had realized. It was perhaps especially necessary as we rely a lot on non-verbal forms of communication.
I fully believe marriage was easier in the "olden days" when there often were several couples and generations living in one space, and the people spent most of their time with their own genders. When I was alone at home with the kids, I couldn't help but think what an unnatural situation it was. There should be other women there to help me and to talk to. My husband has been surrounded by other people all day and is probably not in need of much conversation when he gets home, but by then I am bursting for company (other than the kids, which, though nice, are not really the same thing). And it might not occur to him that I would take his withdrawal and reticence the way I sometimes did, as signs he didn't want to talk to *me*.
What was the topic again?  |
Matt
storyteller
Username: Matt
Post Number: 105
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 01, 2004 - 1:34 pm: | |
I've been reading quite a bit of nineteenth century literature lately and it certainly seems (for European upper social strata, at least) as though spending considerable time in exclusive company with one's own gender was more the norm than the exception. In contrast I can't think of a single time this year in which I was part of a large group of men (say, five or more) with no women present.
Does my wife "get me" (or I, her)? Yes, that's a tricky question. We certainly understand each other far better now than during the first year or two of our relationship. I've heard somewhere (and I doubt this is based in hard fact) that the average woman would like to speak 24,000 words per day, and the average man 12,000...quite a difference! I think in my marriage (which fits this pattern to a degree...my wife is certainly more socially inclined than I) we have gradually compromised to the point at which she expects slightly "less than ideal" communication from me, and I now verbally communicate more than once would have seemed natural to me. Unless forced to examine the question (as now) I'm certainly no longer conscious of this...it's no longer an extra effort.
In terms of emotional needs outside the family, excepting a few old friendships I have few or none. DW keeps in more consistent touch with former acquaintances than I do, but in her case many of these live far enough away that we rarely see them in person anymore. So, the telephone is almost entirely her domain (I have a horror of the awful little things, especially when they're ringing ).
I think I'm luckier than many...my wife is also my best friend.
"Gentlemen! You can't fight in here, this is the War Room!" - from Dr. Strangelove |
Pine
storyteller
Username: Pine
Post Number: 763
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 01, 2004 - 3:08 pm: | |
Miisa, on the one hand, you complain about the all-female work environment and on the other you long for a time where people spent most of their time with people of the same sex. So which way is it?
Miisa:Communication still seems to be the problem, although we are getting better all the time. After reading John Gray's Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus, I no longer get so upset when my DH does or says something that puzzles me, and sure enough, after a while I come to see that the reason was often not what I thought it was. Women have a nasty tendency to see things as being about them if no-one will talk to them about it, while men see little reason in discussing their otherwise bad day with their wives as there is nothing she can do about it, anyway. In that sense men and women seem so different on a cognitive level that it truly is amazing that we manage to live together at all.
For us it is very different. If my husband can't talk to me in detail about his day - both technicalities related to his work and human interactions, he feels cheated. OTOH I tend towards the one-liners. He is also the one who keeps in touch with family members and a few old friends. OTOH I have been intending to email my brother for a couple of weeks now (or has it been months?).
Other than work and our daughter, probably the most important conversation topic for us is things we have learned recently - books, net sources, papers etc.
"We have something offensive for everyone. If nothing that we own offends you, please complain." - sign in a library. |
Miisa
storyteller
Username: Miisa
Post Number: 494
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 01, 2004 - 3:28 pm: | |
Ideally, I feel is should be so that the genders associate mostly with their own kind, but not exclusively (either that or completely mixed), yet still never being alone all day as many housewives are today. In the families of old, the women would be together during the day, and when the men came home from hunting or farming or wherever they would all be together during the evenings, and I am sure there would be an elderly man or adolescent male lounging in some corner even during the days.
In my work environment we have no men that we know collectively. The husbands have never been introduced to the others, there are no social get-togethers; at work it is 100% female, all the time. As I said, I could never do that as a 24-hour life. If the men were coming home for the night, a few hours with just the women would be ideal. But as it is, that environment is too...intense. |
Thalion
storyteller
Username: Thalion
Post Number: 1292
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 08, 2004 - 10:53 am: | |
A lot of the gender misunderstandings certainly are caused by the conditioning we undergo through our societies, and by our expectations. There are certain role models about how boys and girls should behave that are still, often unconsciously, taught to kids. I don't really think segregating the genders except for a few 'mating meetings' like Sawyer suggests for his Neanderthal society, would help with the understanding.
I was of the impression that gender orientation was genetic and not cultural? If that is true, how then can a society possibly live in a setting like Sawyers? I mean, I am heterosexual, and the idea of a sexual relationship with another woman doesn't excite me in the least. I'm sure I'm not the only heterosexual person like that. Likewise, many homosexuals wouldn't be interested in heterosexual relationships? Could you fall in love with a woman, Michael? What Sawyer proposes in his books are love-relationships with both genders, strictly regulated by their rules (and basically leading to that society's unique way of population control, but that aspect should be discussed over on the Sawyer subthread). The partners of the other gender are deeply loved and valued - could you do that without a good understanding of each other, even if you only met for some time once a month?
As a heterosexual female I can only add that I am not sure that I would want that 'deep down, basic' understanding with my partner that I sometimes have with female friends. There is the aspect of mystery and always learning something new about the partner, that is, IMO, an added bonus and makes working your way through the miscommunications worthwhile.
Of course both have to want to work on this and not give up as soon as the 'falling in love' phase is over, which is all too often the case.
I've known older heterosexual couples who laughed about their respective gender quirks and who came to an almost wordless communication.
(Message edited by Thalion on December 08, 2004)
I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they pass by - Douglas Adams |
Annie
storyteller
Username: Annie
Post Number: 1040
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 08, 2004 - 11:30 am: | |
I agree Thal, that bugs me about Sawyer too - for all that he seems to be liberal, his society is actually a reverse argument that people can choose their sexual orientation.
ATTENTION! We are planning to open a Procrastinators' Club! Sometime... |
Firelands
gatherer
Username: Firelands
Post Number: 128
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 08, 2004 - 4:18 pm: | |
Interesting points that I hadn't thought of. Perhaps I didn't think too deeply about Sawyer's world because I was so pleased tp see such a positive portrayal of same-sex relationships. Could I fall in love with and have a sexual relationship with a woman? Well, if societal conditioned actually worked then I would have back in my 20's! But maybe in a different (read non-homophobic society) I would have. I don't possess more than surface knowledge of Greek and Roman societies, but it does seem that bisexuality was more common.
The topic of sex brings me to another problem among our heterosexual friends, the issue of noticing other women and/or looking at pornography (not the moral aspect of whether porn is exploitative). Our female friends have expressed intense insecurity over the idea that their husbands look at other women and that this means they are unsatisfied with their partners.
We have explained that men like to look and we have found no correlation between looking and dissatisfaction with spouses. It would never occur to me to be threatened by Brent noticing another guy. In fact, sometimes we point out guys we think the other one might find cute. Perhaps it's a function of the trust we have as I truly don't believe he would ever cheat on me.
All of the men in the heterosexual relationships of our friends are good guys and I don't believe they would cheat on their wives. Which brings me back to my original point of straight couples not getting each other. Perhaps it is only American women who tend to feel this threatened (or only our friends?)
I have wondered what my relationship is missing by not having a female perspective. It doesn't feel as if I'm missing anything, but then I imagine straight couples don't feel their relationships are harder than necessary because of their gender differences. |
Thalion
storyteller
Username: Thalion
Post Number: 1298
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 08, 2004 - 6:01 pm: | |
I've quoted this before, but I think it's worth to quote it again. The grandmother of a friend once said: When you don't look any more, you're dead!
Of course guys look. And women look, too. And I think that pointing out of gorgeous people (or drooling about some celebrity) is just as common in hetero couples.
I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they pass by - Douglas Adams |
Firelands
gatherer
Username: Firelands
Post Number: 130
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 08, 2004 - 6:42 pm: | |
Thalion says: Of course guys look. And women look, too. And I think that pointing out of gorgeous people (or drooling about some celebrity) is just as common in hetero couples.
Perhaps, but at least it's not amongst our circle of friends. And my mother used to give my father holy hell when she thought he was noticing pretty women. To this day, he still has to be careful what movies they go to for fear there will be a lascivious scene my mother will accuse him of enjoying too much. |
Pine
storyteller
Username: Pine
Post Number: 769
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 08, 2004 - 8:36 pm: | |
Firelands, those women sound insecure about their relationships, hence the suspicion. I do not feel threatened by my husband noticing someone, nor do I feel threatened by his friendship with female co-workers. (And yes, if there is anyone worth looking at, I do to.)
"We have something offensive for everyone. If nothing that we own offends you, please complain." - sign in a library. |
Cavebear
cave painter
Username: Cavebear
Post Number: 2728
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, July 01, 2006 - 9:20 pm: | |
Everyone "looks" sometimes. It is whether they do something after the "looking" that matters (regarding fidelity).
Machiavelli was pretty devious. For a guy... |
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