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Darsina
hunter
Username: Darsina
Post Number: 484
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 16, 2005 - 9:33 am: |     |
(kerensa) "Darsina, in Germany you don't lose your job just because you are ill and have a doctors certificate."
Then please prove your claim, if you're absolutely sure that that never happens. Show me that, despite of the law, there aren't more and more companies that put their employees under pressure to come to work, even when they're sick. I'd be thrilled if things were always handled correctly and according to the law.
To show you that my concerns aren't made up and why I can't agree with your opinion that such things never happen in Germany, I'd like to tell you about two Germans I happen to know who were laid off when they became ill. I realise that those cases are anecdotal evidence and not hard fact, but they still shatter your absolute claim. One person who worked for a machine manufacturer suffers from severe backache and was no longer able to lift heavy weights and needed to go to physiotherapy on a regular basis. Now this case is somewhat of a grey area, because the man in question was no longer able to perform the required tasks, but his former employer also wouldn't let him have his therapy. The other person has uterine cancer and was laid off shortly after her surgery, because the employer was not willing to tolerate that she needed to stay in a sanatorium for a while to fully recover. Both people had medical certificates that clearly stated that they needed the respective treatment and were not able to come to work during that time.
I agree that in Germany the social security is fairly good, the same is true for Austria BTW, but neither country is a fair haven.
Thinking is the work of the intellect, dreaming its enjoyment. - Victor Hugo |
Kerensa
hunter
Username: Kerensa
Post Number: 357
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 16, 2005 - 10:40 am: | |
....Then please prove your claim, if you're absolutely sure that that never happens....
Darsina, I did not say it never happens!
I said: in Germany you don't lose your job just because you are ill and have a doctors certificate.
There must be more to it then what you say about your two cases. People can't get laid off because of illness. There must be other reasons as well.
Look at Tina! That is how it is handled in Germany. After the operation recuperation in a spa at the Baltic Sea in this case. |
Darsina
hunter
Username: Darsina
Post Number: 485
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 16, 2005 - 11:35 am: | |
Well, in those two cases there were no other reasons than the ones I mentioned, at least not that I or the two people in question are aware of. Tina's case is how it should be handled and also usually is. But the pressure is way higher if you work for employers that are not funded by the government, and in particular if you work for an enterprise with only a couple employees. I do realise, however, that a, say, carpenter that has only two employers could face problems if one of hir employees is sick for a prolonged period of time, even if s/he receives govermental compensation.
"Nobody needs to go to work sick!"
Please back up your claim.
Here are four links that refute respectively relativise your absolute claim.
Arbeiten trotz Krankheit: Husten und niesen für den Job
The article states that there are two reasons for a recline in sicks days in Germany. One is that people are afraid to lose their job, the other one is a change in work environment.
Krankschreibungen
This one says about the same, but lays more emphasis on the fact that the change in work environment is responsible for people taking fewer sick days.
Armutskonferenz
The article states that the fear of losing their job makes people accept restrictions WRT their health.
Arbeitnehmer verschenken angeblich 75 Millionen Urlaubstage in jedem Jahr
Germans don't take 75 million days of holiday a year for fear of losing their job.
"People can't get laid off because of illness."
Please back up your claim.
This site refutes your absolute claim.
Krankheitsbedingte Kündigung
The gist of this site is that an employee can be laid-off if, because of sickness, s/he is longer able to meet the requirements specified in hir contract.
quote:Wenn Ihr Arbeitsverhältnis unter das KSchG (Kündigungsschutzgesetz) fällt und Sie daher allgemeinen Kündigungsschutz genießen, braucht Ihr Arbeitgeber nicht nur für eine außerordentliche, sondern auch für eine ordentliche Kündigung einen vernünftigen Grund, damit die Kündigung wirksam ist.
Das KSchG bietet dem Arbeitgeber drei Gründe an, nämlich die Kündigung aus Gründen in der Person des Arbeitnehmers, die Kündigung aus Gründen im Verhalten des Arbeitnehmers und die Kündigung aus betriebsbedingten Gründen. Die krankheitsbedigte Kündigung ist der wichtigste Unterfall der Kündigung aus Gründen in der Person des Arbeitnehmers (personenbedingte Kündigung).
Als "krankheitsbedigte Kündigung" bezeichnet man daher eine vom Arbeitgeber ausgesprochene Kündigung, mit der einem Arbeitnehmer, der durch das KSchG geschützt ist, (trotzdem) in rechtlich zulässiger Weise ordentlich gekündigt werden kann, falls der Arbeitnehmer aufgrund seiner Krankheit den Arbeitsvertrag künftig nicht mehr erfüllen kann.
Thinking is the work of the intellect, dreaming its enjoyment. - Victor Hugo |
Kerensa
hunter
Username: Kerensa
Post Number: 358
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 16, 2005 - 1:27 pm: | |
"Nobody needs to go to work sick!"
And that is true. Only the ones who are afraid of losing their job because they think they are not very good workers/employees go to work sick.
But they don't need to!
1.link:
Für Freiberufler wie sie wird dann die Luft ganz dünn.
This lady is self employed and most probably has a contract for a certain time anyway.
2. link is from the BKK Bundesverband (Health Insurences).
They always panic!
3. link doesn't work for me
4. link doesn't work for me
Your translation of the title is not correct.
"Arbeitnehmer verschenken angeblich 75 Millionen Urlaubstage in jedem Jahr."
Your translation: Germans don't take 75 million days of holiday a year for fear of losing their job.
My translation: Employees ostensible give away 75 mill. holidays each year.
5. link
The gist of this site is that an employee can be laid-off if, because of sickness, s/he is longer able to meet the requirements specified in hir contract.
And here is what I said:
People can't get laid off because of illness. There must be other reasons as well.
If you are ill and can get back to your workplace after recuperation there is no problem.
But if you are unable to do your job because your illness is chronic you will get laid off.
Not even the Unions will say something against it.
And back to your two friends.
If they thought the employer was unfair they could have gone to the Arbeitsgericht (court for problems with employer). Why didn't they?
How old were they at that time?
Did they get a settlement?
Did they find other work? |
Darsina
hunter
Username: Darsina
Post Number: 486
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 16, 2005 - 4:10 pm: | |
And that is true.
Just because you say it's true, it isn't necessarily true for everybody. There are always exceptions, even if the law doesn't allow them. Another example that is a totally different cup of tea, though, is illegal employment. It does exist, although it's not legal. I'm glad that you and your friends obviously never had to face unfair and perhaps even illegal treatment. That doesn't mean, however, that it doesn't exist.
Only the ones who are afraid of losing their job because they think they are not very good workers/employees go to work sick.
Utter garbage. There are a thousand reasons for somebody going to work sick. Yours is a possible one, but s/he might be afraid to not longer be able to earn money for hir family, be afraid that they get no new job because they're already considered too old, whatever.
Fixed link #3, sorry.
http://www.armutskonferenz.at/wissen/wissen_gesund heit_4ursachen.html
Fixed link #4, again sorry.
http://arbeitsrecht.personalverlag.de/www.arbeitsr echt.org/themen-a-z/urlaub/topnews07648.html
FYI that was no translation, but a short resume of the article for those who don't speak German and thus can't use the link.
And here is what I said:
People can't get laid off because of illness. There must be other reasons as well.
A chronic illness is still an illness. If you're sick, your work performance usually isn't as good as on ordinary days. A simple cold can be enough to make you feel all crappy and thus you don't get as much work done as you'd do otherwise. But I agree that you can't compare temporal with chronic sickness. But how should I have known that you were only talking about people who are temporarily ill and not also about chronically sick people, since you didn't specify your claims in the first place?
If they thought the employer was unfair they could have gone to the Arbeitsgericht (court for problems with employer). Why didn't they?
AFAIK they didn't want to cope with all the hassle that goes with a trial. The man found a new job nearly immediately afterwards that provided better work conditions, so he didn't bother any more and moved on. The woman was too sick to find a new job. She was told by a lawyer that she could try refuting the layoff. But since her employer was a freelancer (namely a GP) with only one other employee she was told that her former boss couldn't be expected to be able to afford keeping her due to his limited income. In her case the law I cited in link #5 was applied.
How old were they at that time?
The man was 33, the woman was in her mid-fourties (she was 46 I think).
Did they get a settlement?
I have no information on that question in either case. It never crossed my mind to ask.
Did they find other work?
The man did, the woman didn't.
As I've already stated before, I'm glad to live in an environment that has a good social net and usually respects the rights of employees. But my point was that you can't always rely on the latter and take it as a given in any case.
I suspect, however, that it's better to let this topic rest for a while, since we obviously won't agree anyway. I sincerely wished Germany would be as happy-clappy perfect and fair as you think it is. I also hope you will never have to face the hidden shady sides of the German system.
Thinking is the work of the intellect, dreaming its enjoyment. - Victor Hugo |
Kerensa
hunter
Username: Kerensa
Post Number: 360
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 16, 2005 - 6:28 pm: | |
Ok, let the topic rest 
I often wonder why you don't talk about your country. This is a thread for Europeans to tell about themselves and not only for the Germans.
I wouldn't mind learning some more about Austria. |
Ted
gatherer
Username: Ted
Post Number: 222
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 17, 2005 - 4:24 am: | |
I'm beginning to realise that Oz is even better than I thought, if that is possible.
Here we have unfair dismissal laws, and although the employers are always trying to water them down, they work pretty well.
We have a long tradition of trade unionism here, and although membership of unions has shown a steady decline over the last twenty or thirty years, the basic principles of giving workers "a fair go" still persists, even though unionism is almost non-existent in business. Teachers are an exception, however, and are mostly members of the union.
Here it is quite hard to get rid of an incompetent employee. There is a long series of steps that must be taken, giving the employee time and training to get their performance up to scratch.
And there is guaranteed sick leave for all people, and no stigma attached to taking it.
That said, I remember reading one report which said that Australians by and large are now the hardest working people on the planet in the white collar industries of business and commerce. I find that hard to swallow, but at the same time there are many many business workers who routinely work sixty to eighty hour weeks and up, for no extra salary.
This is in marked contrast to the situation when I was a kid, when **nobody** worked more than forty hours a week. Or at least no employee.
Ted
Do not go gentle into that good night...Rage, rage against the dying of the light |
Scott
flint knapper
Username: Scott
Post Number: 952
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 18, 2005 - 5:04 am: | |
No, keep talking - this is fascinating and I can see both sides and parallels to Canada.
As Ted pointed out, it is fairly difficult to get rid of an incompetent employee and the same goes for here, if you are a large company, more than 20 employees.
Men and women can get maternity leave here. If you get sick, you invariably lose your job here, but it is rare to los eyour job because you caught the flu or whatever. As long as you can continue competently in your job you are ok. Sickness benefits, as provided by the state are dismal here. Unionised employees, civil servants and teachers have gold plated plans and protections here, but that sort of thing is getting less common.
I would say the Canadian situation reflects the Australian one. We have 9 statutory holidays and the average Canadian worker gets 21 days of holidays per year on top of that. Apparently the average American only gets 12, plus a similar number ot stat holidays. The French on the other hand......
Great discussion...if I ever leave Canada (doubtful), I think I will work in France and live the other 11 months in Oz!
Scott
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Ces gens, Jondalar, ils sourient. Ils me sourient. - Ayla |
Ted
hunter
Username: Ted
Post Number: 228
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 18, 2005 - 7:35 am: | |
------- If you get sick, you invariably lose your job here, but it is rare to los eyour job because you caught the flu or whatever.-----
Can you expand on that? It sounds draconian.
Ted
Do not go gentle into that good night...Rage, rage against the dying of the light |
Miisa
flint knapper
Username: Miisa
Post Number: 700
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 18, 2005 - 3:56 pm: | |
--- It sounds draconian.---
Indeed it does. In Finland you have to be on continuous sick leave for at least a year to get a "sickness pension/retirement", and although it is apparently not easy to qualify even then, there are quite a few applicants. My co-worker's husband just qualified, he has a bad back. I think he is in his late 50's.
On the other hand, someone else from my company has been on sick leave now for almost three years and he is apparently still hoping to return to work. He had a stroke, I believe.
The employer usually only has to pay for the first few days or weeks, after that they get compensated by the state.
If a doctor has testified that someone is sick, they cannot be fired for that. They can not be fired for going on maternity leave, the three-year care leave or seven-year part-time care leave. |
Da_bear
flint knapper
Username: Da_bear
Post Number: 670
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 18, 2005 - 5:31 pm: | |
In the US, after 30 days, you can be "laid off" or put on "workman's compensation", depending on the circumstances of the sickness.
The states make the rules after that, but the employer can fight the payments as the premiums are charged to the company. Some do, some don't and an arbitrator makes the choice. After 13 weeks unemployed, the worker can file for unemployment for 13 more weeks due to inability to work.
Workman's comp is until the worker is well again, however long it takes.
If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice. |
Darsina
hunter
Username: Darsina
Post Number: 487
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 18, 2005 - 7:32 pm: | |
How much is workman's compensation? Does it depend on your previous earnings? What about unemployment money?
Thinking is the work of the intellect, dreaming its enjoyment. - Victor Hugo |
Darsina
hunter
Username: Darsina
Post Number: 488
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 18, 2005 - 8:37 pm: | |
(kerensa) "I often wonder why you don't talk about your country. This is a thread for Europeans to tell about themselves and not only for the Germans.
I wouldn't mind learning some more about Austria."
Austria and Germany are so much alike in many points regarding their social system that I usually only point out differences. So if I haven't mentioned some particular facts, it's safe to assume that here things are handled the same way as in your country.
Thinking is the work of the intellect, dreaming its enjoyment. - Victor Hugo |
Kerensa
hunter
Username: Kerensa
Post Number: 361
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 18, 2005 - 8:44 pm: | |
Do you think that everybody on this board knows that?
For sure I didn't till now. I thought you don't like to talk about your country. |
Da_bear
flint knapper
Username: Da_bear
Post Number: 671
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 18, 2005 - 9:59 pm: | |
How much is workman's compensation? Does it depend on your previous earnings? What about unemployment money?
WC is 80% of the salary, and there is a tax break so its pretty close to the usual "take home" pay.
However, it does NOT include overtime, so those working for extra do not get the extra.
Unemployment money is a couple of hundred US$ per week. Its based on salary, and varies from state to state. Not all workers are eligible for it. Temps, part time, and contract workers are not.
da bear
If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice. |
Darsina
hunter
Username: Darsina
Post Number: 489
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 19, 2005 - 7:10 am: | |
Bolded sentences are quotes by kerensa.
Do you think that everybody on this board knows that?
No, it isn't my habit to take things for granted and insinuate that people know or don't know certain facts. That would be terribly discourteous, and that's exactly the reason why I kept pointing out the similarity between our two countries.
For instance: "It's handled the same way in Austria."
Found in http://www.auelfans.ca/discus/messages/12/872.html
For sure I didn't till now.
Well, as you see, I've pointed this very fact clearly out.
I thought you don't like to talk about your country.
kerensa, now you have me puzzled. What the heck made you believe that I wouldn't want to talk about my country, in particular since I mentioned Austria here over and over again? I'll give you a few examples. Mind you, these are only examples, not a complete list of all the times I mentioned Austria.
http://www.auelfans.ca/discus/messages/12/441.html #POST2325
http://www.auelfans.ca/discus/messages/12/594.html #POST3480
http://www.auelfans.ca/discus/messages/12/361.html #POST1667
http://www.auelfans.ca/discus/messages/4/2560.html #POST12196
Rest assured that I esteem Austria.
Thinking is the work of the intellect, dreaming its enjoyment. - Victor Hugo |
Da_bear
flint knapper
Username: Da_bear
Post Number: 683
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Monday, July 11, 2005 - 4:15 pm: | |
I thought this might fit in here.
The bus line seems to be suing for the right to charge more, have a monopoly and give abusive, non punctual service. I realize that when you have workers who cannot be, or are difficult to remove, you can expect decreased efficiency and increased antisocial behavior, but this is ridiculous.
"We will charge what we wish, curse you if you question us, show up when we so desire, and sue you if you dare to drive yourself and your colleagues to work."
Insanity.
They might even win.
Sydney MH
V\Bus line sues women for car-pooling
July 12, 2005
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Paris: They might have been congratulated for their "green" efforts in an area of heavy air pollution.
Instead a group of French cleaning ladies who organised a car-pooling scheme to get to work are being taken to court by a coach company that accuses them of "an act of unfair and parasitical competition".
The women, who live in Moselle and work five days a week at European Union offices in Luxembourg, are being sued by Transports Schiocchet Excursions, which runs a service along the route. It wants the women fined and their cars confiscated.
Two years ago a business tribunal threw out the company's case. It is now pursuing the women in a higher court, saying their action has cost it €2 million ($3.2 million).
The women explained that for many years cleaners used the company line for the 40-minute ride across the border, which cost them €110 a month.
"Using our cars is quicker and at least twice as cheap. And on the bus we didn't have the right to eat or even to speak," said Martine Bourguignon.
Odette Friedmann added: "In the evening, instead of coming to get us at 9.30pm, the bus would arrive at 10.30pm. If you made any comment to the driver you'd get a mouthful of abuse."
The women's lawyer, Cécile Klein-Schmitt, said: "It's absurd and ridiculous. I don't see how any magistrate can find any legal basis for this case."
The court case will be heard in January.
The Guardian
If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice. |
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