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JADE STARS * Head-Clash-In * Torture the way to go to protect and enlarge democracy < Previous Next >

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Sweetsunray
storyteller
Username: Sweetsunray

Post Number: 670
Registered: 9-2003
Posted on Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 2:47 am:   Edit PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well, we know about Abu Ghraib, and Guantanamo. Abu Ghraib was just a few bad soldiers, and Guantanamo is only soft torture, just a load of terrorists who have no rights to know what they're accused of, or be defended. The dogs didn't bite, did they?

But there's more... What about rendering people to countries with regimes that are famous for torture, such as Egypt, Syria, Uzbekistan, etc... What about using extorted confessions through torture for a speech on the UN to defend the need for a preemptive war?

Torture: The Dirty Business


quote:

In this programme Andrew Gilligan examines the CIA’s practice of abducting terrorist suspects and transferring them to states such as Egypt and Syria, where torture is routine. The programme also exposes the British government’s refusal to condemn the use of torture by the government of Uzbekistan, for the sake of the ‘evidence’ it produces: ’selling our souls for dross’, in the words of the former British ambassador.



The documentary can be seen on the page

Maher Arar case
One of the render cases in the documentary


quote:

Maher Arar, a Canadian citizen born in Syria in 1970, came to Canada in 1987. After earning bachelor's and master's degrees in computer engineering, Arar worked in Ottawa as a telecommunications engineer.

On a stopover in New York as he was returning to Canada from a vacation in Tunisia in September 2002, U.S. officials detained Arar, claiming he has links to al-Qaeda, and deported him to Syria, even though he was carrying a Canadian passport.

When Arar returned to Canada more than a year later, he said he had been tortured during his incarceration and accused American officials of sending him to Syria knowing that they practise torture.




The link has a timeline of events, including an inquiry to get all the dirty business aired.

Ahmir Agiza and Muhammad Al Zery

They were arrested by Swedish security Police, and taken to Bromma, an airport in Sweden. There the US N379P rendering jet waited to pick them up and took them to Cairo. Both have reported they were being tortured from the early beginning of their extradition to Cairo. Sweden has started to inquire into the dirty business.

same case
another link to same case

Abu Omar abducted from Italy

Italy did not arrest this man. He was abducted, taken to Aviano and rendered to Egypt. His family hope he's still alive. Italy is searching this case out with a criminal investigation. After all, they did not extradite him, nor arrested the man to be extradited. Italian souvereignty was ignored.

All this rendering is done by Gulfstream jets. The most famous one was previusly known as N379P, and spotted and tracked around the world by hobbyist planespotters at their favourite airport. Right now it's known as N44982.

Wikipedia on N379P


quote:

British Guardian newspaper, (March 2005):

We were able to chart the toing and froing of the private executive jet used at [an abduction in Sweden] partly through the observations of plane-spotters posted on the web and partly through a senior source in the Pakistan Inter Services Intelligence agency (ISI). It was a Gulfstream V Turbo, tailfin number N379P; its flight plans always began at an airstrip in Smithfield, North Carolina, and ended in some of the world's hot spots. It was owned by Premier Executive Transport Services, incorporated in Delaware, a brass plaque company with nonexistent directors, hired by American agents to revive an old CIA tactic from the 1970s, when agency men had kidnapped South American criminals and flown them back to their own countries to face trial so that justice could be rendered. Now "rendering" was being used by the Bush administration to evade justice.
Robert Baer, a CIA case officer in the Middle East until 1997, told us how it works. "We pick up a suspect or we arrange for one of our partner countries to do it. Then the suspect is placed on civilian transport to a third country where, let's make no bones about it, they use torture. If you want a good interrogation, you send someone to Jordan. If you want them to be killed, you send them to Egypt or Syria. Either way, the US cannot be blamed as it is not doing the heavy work."




Washington post on N379P

picture of N379P

When they arrested Ibn al-Sheikh al-Libi, a senior Al Qaida terrorrist, in Pakistan, former FBI special agent Jack Coonan insisted on using the legal route (reading rights, and no touching). But the CIA won out. He was taken to Egypt, before being sent to Guantanamo. Not a little later Colin Powell gave his infamous speech before the UN.

Jack Coonan and Ibn al-Sheikh al-Libi


quote:

Everything that has been done at the top filters down to guys like Jack Cloonan, a veteran FBI agent. He understood that a breakdown in the respect for law would serve to dull the shining example we have set, as worshippers of democracy, as a decent people in a decent civil society, as Americans from that visionary city upon a hill. It is one of the bedrock principles of the rule of law that a law-enforcement officer cannot break the law as a means of enforcing the law. Cloonan understood that when he professionally came to face a situation where he had to decide how to handle an al Qaeda figure by the name of Ibn Sheikh al-Libi, a man who had run Osama bin Laden’s terrorist training camp in Afghanistan.

(Please read the rest of my essay at the provided link.)

Read Cloonan’s part in Jane Mayer’s New Yorker story and think about how far the Bush administration has come to break down key legal perspective differences which have separated us from the terrorists.


quote:

A few months after September 11th, the U.S. gained custody of its first high-ranking Al Qaeda figure, Ibn al-Sheikh al-Libi. He had run bin Laden’s terrorist training camp in Khalden, Afghanistan, and was detained in Pakistan. Zacarias Moussaoui, who was already in U.S. custody, and Richard Reid, the Shoe Bomber, had both spent time at the Khalden camp. At the F.B.I.’s field office in New York, Jack Cloonan, an officer who had worked for the agency since 1972, struggled to maintain control of the legal process in Afghanistan. C.I.A. and F.B.I. agents were vying to take possession of Libi. Cloonan, who worked with Dan Coleman on anti-terrorism cases for many years, said he felt that “neither the Moussaoui case nor the Reid case was a slam dunk.” He became intent on securing Libi’s testimony as a witness against them. He advised his F.B.I. colleagues in Afghanistan to question Libi respectfully, “and handle this like it was being done right here, in my office in New York.” He recalled, “I remember talking on a secure line to them. I told them, ‘Do yourself a favor, read the guy his rights. It may be old-fashioned, but this will come out if we don’t. It may take ten years, but it will hurt you, and the bureau’s reputation, if you don’t. Have it stand as a shining example of what we feel is right.’”

Cloonan’s F.B.I. colleagues advised Libi of his rights and took turns with C.I.A. agents in questioning him. After a few days, F.B.I. officials felt that they were developing a good rapport with him. The C.I.A. agents, however, felt that he was lying to them, and needed tougher interrogation.

To Cloonan’s dismay, the C.I.A. reportedly rendered Libi to Egypt. He was seen boarding a plane in Afghanistan, restrained by handcuffs and ankle cuffs, his mouth covered by duct tape. Cloonan, who retired from the F.B.I. in 2002, said, “At least we got information in ways that wouldn’t shock the conscience of the court. And no one will have to seek revenge for what I did.” He added, “We need to show the world that we can lead, and not just by military might.”

After Libi was taken to Egypt, the F.B.I. lost track of him. Yet he evidently played a crucial background role in Secretary of State Colin Powell’s momentous address to the United Nations Security Council in February, 2003, which argued the case for a preëmptive war against Iraq. In his speech, Powell did not refer to Libi by name, but he announced to the world that “a senior terrorist operative” who “was responsible for one of Al Qaeda’s training camps in Afghanistan” had told U.S. authorities that Saddam Hussein had offered to train two Al Qaeda operatives in the use of “chemical or biological weapons.”

Last summer, Newsweek reported that Libi, who was eventually transferred from Egypt to Guantánamo Bay, was the source of the incendiary charge cited by Powell, and that he had recanted. By then, the first anniversary of the U.S. invasion of Iraq had passed and the 9/11 Commission had declared that there was no known evidence of a working relationship between Saddam and Al Qaeda. Dan Coleman was disgusted when he heard about Libi’s false confession. “It was ridiculous for interrogators to think Libi would have known anything about Iraq,” he said. “I could have told them that. He ran a training camp. He wouldn’t have had anything to do with Iraq. Administration officials were always pushing us to come up with links, but there weren’t any. The reason they got bad information is that they beat it out of him. You never get good information from someone that way.”





Colin Powell speech before the UN


quote:

I can trace the story of a senior terrorist operative telling how Iraq provided training in these weapons to al Qaeda. Fortunately, this operative is now detained, and he has told his story. I will relate it to you now as he, himself, described it.
This senior al Qaeda terrorist was responsible for one of al Qaeda's training camps in Afghanistan...

He says bin Laden and his top deputy in Afghanistan, deceased al Qaeda leader Mohammed Atef, did not believe that al Qaeda labs in Afghanistan were capable enough to manufacture these chemical or biological agents. They needed to go somewhere else. They had to look outside of Afghanistan for help. Where did they go? Where did they look? They went to Iraq.

The support that (inaudible) describes included Iraq offering chemical or biological weapons training for two al Qaeda associates beginning in December 2000. He says that a militant known as Abu Abdula Al-Iraqi (ph) had been sent to Iraq several times between 1997 and 2000 for help in acquiring poisons and gases. Abdula Al- Iraqi (ph) characterized the relationship he forged with Iraqi officials as successful.




Former ambassador Craig Murray was replaced and hauled out of Uzbekistan when he criticised Jack Straw on using bollocks stories begotten through severe torture (boiling of limbs for example) by the autocratic regime of Islam Karimov, and MI6 and CIA calling these kind of stories "highly secret intelligence."

Craig Murrays story


quote:

We received photos of a corpse, Mr Abazov, who had been boiled to death. The corpse, in addition to having its fingernails removed, showed complete scolding damage to the skin on the lower arms, legs and lower torso.
Murray made the claim that torture was systemic in Uzbekistan and that the information being procured from victims of this torture was being used by his own British government. Murray tried in vain to bring all of this to light to foreign secretary Jack Straw, as he explains:
When I first went back in November 2002 and said, ``look, America’s supporting this really vicious dictatorship here'', and the intelligence material we're gaining has been gained under torture, maybe I was naïve but I actually thought that if I brought this to Jack Straw’s attention, brought it up to a high enough level, then they'd stop.
Unfortunately for Mr Murray, he was being naïve, but his naïveté was a sign of his own human decency which contrasted greatly, as it transpired, to that of his superiors. On discovering his own government’s complicity, Murray, in the Financial Times in 2004, openly criticised MI6 and the CIA after publishing information in a Foreign Office document. This adherence to democratic principles did not bode him well, however. Murray was called home from Uzbekistan and an investigation was carried out, after which Murray was fired from his position as Ambassador. To this injury, much insult was hurled too:
So then they [the British Government] started contacting the Media, telling people I was an alcoholic, telling people I was offering visas in exchange for sex. They brought up these amazing allegations against me as formal charges which were then dropped.
According to the UN, there are currently up to 8000 people imprisoned in Uzbekistan for no more reason than their religious and political persuasions. Very few Uzbeks dare to speak out about Karimov’s crimes in Uzbekistan, but those who do have a chilling tale to tell. For example, peace activist, Surat Akrakov, told of beatings, rape and electric shock occurring as part of the torture regime.

Unwaveringly, Craig Murray, despite his ouster, travelled back to Uzbekistan in April 2003 in order to speak with one Professor Jamal Mersajdov, an outspoken critic of the Karimov regime. Unfortunately, Murray’s visit did not go unnoticed:
I left the house that evening, at 3 o’clock the next morning the body of his [Professor Jamal] grandson was dumped on the doorstep. The right hand had been immersed in boiling water or liquid for a long period. His murder was a warning to dissidents for meeting me or perhaps a warning to me for meeting dissidents.
The usual arguments from the Karimov regime were that torture is necessary in order to curb the threat of Islamic terrorism. However, dissidents and critics, alike, claim that this is merely used as a pretext in order to continue the repression and torture that is already emblematic of the Karimov regime; war on terror or no war on terror.

Craig Murray’s tenacity is to be commended in light of the many obstacles he has had to face. The sacrifices he and his compatriots in Uzbekistan have made to bring this story to light is worthy of praise too, since their sacrifices have shone the spotlight on the corrupt and despicable policies of the Bush and Blair governments since 9/11 and prior to 9/11.

Craig Murray, himself, has begun the slow journey back into politics. He has as his goal to displace the current foreign secretary, Jack Straw, for, like many of us, Murray understands the dire and dangerous consequences of a foreign policy which reneges on human rights laws and international law




BBC Islam Karimov and Craig Murray

http://politics.guardian.co.uk/election/comment/0,15803,1439776,00.html#article_continue

Craig Murrays website

The following site keeps track of news articles, leaked documents, etc... Although the picture it tries to present is that of a conspiracy for the new world order (PNAC), it does contain a wealth of articles to trace and check.

the dossier


Quite frankly... this is an outrage!
Everyone has a motive for giving arguments. But only the arguments given matter.
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Scott
flint knapper
Username: Scott

Post Number: 1046
Registered: 5-2003
Posted on Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 3:23 am:   Edit PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What's wrong with torture SSR, so long as you get the information you want? The USA doesn't practice torture, Rumsfeld said so. It doesn't condone it either. All these cases must be made up. The US is after all a signatory to the UN Convention Against Torture.

Quite, I find it outrageous too! But then again the US is famous for signing documents that it has no intention of keeping. NAFTA comes to mind recently.

Scott
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Ces gens, Jondalar, ils sourient. Ils me sourient. - Ayla
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Sweetsunray
storyteller
Username: Sweetsunray

Post Number: 671
Registered: 9-2003
Posted on Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 4:02 am:   Edit PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well, the UK isn't much better, or Sweden... etc

Does it surprises me? Not much. But it makes me wonder even more what the boys in Iraq think they're fighting for? Democracy? Give me a break. Bush wouldn't know what democracy is, even if it bit him in his arse.
Everyone has a motive for giving arguments. But only the arguments given matter.
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Snowwolf
bear cub
Username: Snowwolf

Post Number: 46
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 11:17 am:   Edit PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I find it outrageous as well as worrying. It seems some of our governments are so desperate to appear to be doing something to combat terrorism that they are in real danger of becoming terrorists themselves.

It was announced recently on British TV news that the government is working on deals to deport suspected terrorists or terrorist sympathisers to countries that people previously would not have been sent back to because of those countries human rights records and use of torture. Apparently these countries have promised to be nice to the deportees!!!! And the UK Government is willing to accept their promises!!!

One such country mentioned was Jordan, but the government seems a bit unforthcoming as to what other countries they are suddenly willing to accept the word of that they wouldn't in the past.

Ordinary people who are being interviewed for their opinions, seem to be mainly thinking that if it stops or reduces the risk of terrorism, then it's ok, as are other proposed security measures. My worry is that all our civil liberties are going to be gradually nibbled away until we may as well just hand victory to the terrorists anyway, we won't be able to move about freely or go anywhere without a whole range of security measures overseeing our every move.

At what point do sensible security measures become unacceptable intrusions into our daily lives? At what point does the wish to prevent these murderers disrupting our society cross the line into unacceptable preventative measures? In my opinion, if we forget the rights of the individual to try to protect the masses, then we are already lost.
"Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement." Gandalf. (JRR Tolkien)
My Pictures.
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Colpul
gatherer
Username: Colpul

Post Number: 102
Registered: 8-2005
Posted on Wednesday, August 31, 2005 - 1:29 am:   Edit PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Homeland Security, this is a parody! Please do not come to my home in the middle of the night to drag me off as an "enemy combatant" to never be heard from again. I would be forced to exercise my second amendment rights to protect my First, Fourth, Fifth and Sixth Amendment rights.

Fresh off the Wire from the CIP (Colpul International Press):

Headline: al Qaeda Declares VITORY!!!

Saying that all the goals of al Qaeda's 9/11 attack on the US have been fulfilled a spokesman for Usama Bin Laden and al Qaeda released a report that the Bush administration is calling "dudey-poo". In an exclusive interview with CIP Bin Laden said, "We have accomplished everything we set out to accomplish. The Bush administration's claims that we were out to end freedom, as Americans knew it has been accomplished. One cannot argue but that the Patriot act and various Homeland Security provisions have done just that. Ha! American devils have trashed their own beloved Constitution! Nazi Germany and the U.S.S.R. could not do that so it shows how strong Islam can be."

When asked about specifics on just how the Constitution had been "trashed" Bin Laden answered, "Your American Bill of Rights say, and I quote 'The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.' does it not seem to you that this Patriot Act supercedes this amendment? If no warrant is needed if Homeland Security declares you a risk and there is no way for a court get involved with your case then the bill is useless drivel. Anyone can be declared a risk and with no way to prove they aren’t they are stuck between a bush and a hard place. See the Act also does away with the sixth amendment. It used to protect you against the government by giving you public due process. There is no longer an absolute to a speedy trial where you get to call witnesses and the State doesn't even need to charge you with anything, only accuse and not even a public accusation! I was wrong after all, hee hee, I do love America ha ha."

When asked about this apparent unconstitutional hole in the Patriot act President Bush told reporters, "We're do'n someth'n about that now up on Capital Hill. Once we get rid of them liberal judges legislating things from that there bench like the Government needen ta prove a terrorist did something wrong to throw their commie butts in jail or giving enemies of Texas, and by Texas I'm also include'n America, a liberal lawyer just out to get their client off. Now you better watch your ass with these hard questions cuz I got that that...what ever number that freedom of the press thingy in the Declaration of Independence is in my sights."

Bush was then shown a copy of Bin Laden's statement which claimed that al Qaeda's goal of creating a continues state fear in America had been achieved by the fact that the terror alert color chart will never reach green Bush responded, "Hay, I never thought we should'a put green on there in the first place. Dumb ol' color. Do you see green on the Texas Flag? Is it on the American Flag? NO! Green is as un-American as John Karri's war record. American Soldiers, defenders of freedom don’t wear green and neither do we. Well anyway, we don't go to green cuz terrorists are keep'n us from being safe." When it was pointed out to President Bush that this would mean that Bin Laden's statement was correct Dick Chany was seen putting his hand up the President's back. The President then responded, "Bin Laden is a terrorist who will twist words and lie but America will not falter in our war on terror. We brought down Sadam in a victory for freedom." When a reporter pointed out to the President that made no damn sense in response to the question the president replied, "Sadam wants to use weapons of mass destruction against Christian children. You are either for Sadam or against America."

Bush was less vague about the third and final condition al Qaeda claimed for its victory. Bush was again shown the quote, "al Qaeda has achieved for all terrorist the ability to control America like a puppet dancing on a string. All a terrorist need do is place a prank cell phone call and airports, seaports and even entire cities will come to a grinding halt! You tell me that's not power! I don't even need to get up from my EZ-boy. I just wait until 'Darma and Greg' have a commercial break then press #2 on speed dial, that is a Domino's, and say, 'Oh I hope the Americans aren't picking this up with their high tech satellites, I'll take a large New York crust pizza with extra anchovies and hold the Canadian Bacon, I repeat, hold the CANADIAN bacon is that clear!' and boom, the FBI, NSA and CIA computers start turning and the next thing you know every port on the Eastern Seaboard is shut down from Canada to New York! America goes to Red and I get a pizza! ha ha ha! Beats the hell out of the olden days when we would call the White House and ask it their refrigerator was running. Bless Allah, we can even pick the next President of America. If we want another tail chaser all I need do is say 'Gosh I sure hope Jed Bush’s opponent wins.' and America will elect another President who will keep me safe for four more years by invading another secular Arab nation to stop Islamic Fundamentalism."

Bush is not phased, "That's why we are staying ahead of them terrorists, see I already told Jed he has nexties. They is making a mistake if they think they can out think me cuz I might be dumb but I’m dumb like a fox. See what them liberals, democrats and terrorist just don't get is that sometimes ya got to burn the Constitution to save it. America plans to bring suicide bombers to justice Texas style! Ya strap a bomb to yourself and blow up a school bus full of American Christian kids and we'll find ya, hall ya in and electrocute ya in old Sparky! That’s the only thing these terrorist understand." It was pointed out to Bush that to kill a dead terrorist would be redundant he was quoted as saying, "That's the point, if'n they don't learn by learn'n we'll re-done it to them again until they learn what they've learn'd. It’s a srtateegery the terrorists will comprehend."
Nam et ipsa scientia potestas est. (For knowledge, too, is itself a power.) Francis Bacon
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Angakuk
hunter
Username: Angakuk

Post Number: 225
Registered: 6-2005
Posted on Wednesday, August 31, 2005 - 3:37 am:   Edit PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Colpul,

"It takes all kinds to make a world and I'm just one of them." My Grandmother

I don't blame you for not believing in the kind of god you think I believe in. I don't believe in that god either. George MacDonald (paraphrase)

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