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Scott
flint knapper
Username: Scott
Post Number: 1632
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 21, 2006 - 8:37 pm: |     |
Fascinating Pine!
But I don't understand how 'sacred values' can become more important that one's immediate life circumstances and secure future. Isn't security of life and person most important? Rationality goes out the window to the extent that you make choices that go against your well-being, present and future? I find this hard to accept.
Sounds like 'sacred values' are quite dangerous.
How does one have a rational discourse about this without the debate devolving into a religious "I'm right and you are going to hell" sort of thing?
Sheesh!
Scott
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Ces gens, Jondalar, ils sourient. Ils me sourient. - Ayla |
Pine
flint knapper
Username: Pine
Post Number: 1294
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 21, 2006 - 9:47 pm: | |
Scott, you know very well how much people are willing to sacrifice for their sacred values, whether religious or not. See how much people sacrifice for their countries, for communism, for an admired leader. People waste a preposterous number of lives so that the border between two countries would pass in one place rather than another when it is not at all clear that the local population would clearly benefit more from one situation rather than the other. The past conflict between Italy and Austria, Argentina vs Chile, Argentina vs UK, things like that make no rational sense until you consider the variant of patriotism that idolises a specific definition of one's countries boundaries.
Cohen's Law: 'Unless you fail at more than 10% of the things you try, you aren't trying enough things.' |
Scott
flint knapper
Username: Scott
Post Number: 1634
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 2:08 am: | |
Pine, I understand it from an intellectual pov - that it happens. I can point to instances of this sacrifice of oneself for 'sacred values', but I don't understand it for a "people" or collective group.
Would you give your life for your leader, country or piece of dirt? I wouldn't. I would give my life to save another perhaps but not for dirt. I can conceive of giving up my life in the pursuit of freedom. This I understand. I even understand individual Jesuit Priests allowing themselves to be burned at the stake rather than recant their beliefs. But I don't understand a whole people giving up their collective security for something intangible, when their individual lives are not generally at risk, but their collective future security is. That is not rational.
After reading the article, I understand better why the Palestinians seem to be intent on martyrdom every time they are close to a peace settlement - but it certainly doesn't increase my opinion of their intelligence.
Scott
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Ces gens, Jondalar, ils sourient. Ils me sourient. - Ayla |
Cavebear
cave painter
Username: Cavebear
Post Number: 3076
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 23, 2006 - 12:25 am: | |
(Scott) "Would you give your life for your leader, country or piece of dirt?"
Why did the US fight in Europe in WWI and WWII? It wasn't for Leader, Country, or dirt. We weren't in any danger from Germany. We would have gained more at no cost by accepting Nazi Germany and trading with it. They desperately needed trade. So, why do you think my grandparent's and parent's generations went over there and died?
Thank you, Carl Sagan... |
Pine
flint knapper
Username: Pine
Post Number: 1299
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 23, 2006 - 4:14 am: | |
It seems most, if not all, societies have sacred values of one kind or other, but they disagree on which are the best one. Just like members of a religion think some other religion is ridiculous but theirs makes sense, we may think dying for a few acres of dirt is ridiculous but dying for freedom is lofty, and someone else may have a different opinion. I don't think it is trivial to make people 'see the light', but the lesson is that one must understand what the other side holds sacred, and be aware that sacred values need a different approach than common sense.
Cohen's Law: 'Unless you fail at more than 10% of the things you try, you aren't trying enough things.' |
Ted
hunter
Username: Ted
Post Number: 525
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 29, 2006 - 8:12 am: | |
cavebear:
Why did the US fight in Europe in WWI and WWII? It wasn't for Leader, Country, or dirt. We weren't in any danger from Germany. We would have gained more at no cost by accepting Nazi Germany and trading with it. They desperately needed trade. So, why do you think my grandparent's and parent's generations went over there and died?
On the contrary, it does come down to "country and dirt". Hawaii was the country and dirt involved in the first instance. And the leader did have a very great deal to do with it as well.
The heroism and self sacrifice of the US and its defence forces is not at issue, nor the support for the troops by those still at home once war was declared.
But the reason the US went to war against Germany was not for high minded ideals.
The US went to war as a result of Pearl Harbor. Before the attack by the Japanese on Pearl Harbor, the US public did not want to know about the war in europe. It was felt that US involvement in WWI was a mistake, and the US public felt that European conflicts did not concern them.
The attack on Pearl Harbor is seen by some to be the result of F.D.R.'s oil embargo on Japan, and some think that this was actually designed by F.D.R. so that there would be an act of belligerence by Japan which would galvanise public opinion. Whether this is true or not, the result was clear.
War was declared on Japan within a few days. Japan had a pact with Germany, so because the US had declared war on Japan, Germany was obligated to declare war on the US. The US was thus obligated to reciprocate with a declaration of war on Germany.
Whatever happened afterwards, the reasons for actually entering the war were more mundane than a high minded wish to free europe.
Ted
Do not go gentle into that good night...Rage, rage against the dying of the light
Benjamin Disraeli: "The Jews are a nervous people. Nineteen centuries of Christian love have taken a toll." |
Scott
flint knapper
Username: Scott
Post Number: 1681
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 30, 2006 - 2:46 am: | |
Pine, I understand what you are saying but to abandon common sense is counterintuitive at best and idiocy at worse. To abandon logic and reason to understand the insanity of the other side - in the long term don't you risk sliding down the same slippery slope?
If the Palestinians are willing to martyr themselves over some stupid belief and not accept a peaceful solution at the expense of the majority in their society, then those people need to be removed or it made quite clear that that course of action will never result in their goals. On the otherhand, if the reasonable people within the society can be helped then that should be done as well. I understand the idea of 'sacred ideas' and some are legitimate, but some are artificial. Non-artificial ones would be universal ideas - life, freedom, knowledge. Dirt, icons, sacred mountains simply are not.
Scott
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Ces gens, Jondalar, ils sourient. Ils me sourient. - Ayla |
Scott
flint knapper
Username: Scott
Post Number: 1682
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 30, 2006 - 3:03 am: | |
Ted:
The US went to war as a result of Pearl Harbor. Before the attack by the Japanese on Pearl Harbor, the US public did not want to know about the war in europe. It was felt that US involvement in WWI was a mistake, and the US public felt that European conflicts did not concern them.
This is accepted fact in Japan. See Charles Beard's President Roosevelt and the Coming of the War, 1941: Appearances and Realities
I tend to agree with you Ted. While the US did great things in the war and especially after the war, the beginning was less than auspicious and a few years late.
Scott
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Ces gens, Jondalar, ils sourient. Ils me sourient. - Ayla |
Scott
flint knapper
Username: Scott
Post Number: 1703
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 12, 2006 - 5:39 am: | |
Is Gaza going into civil war? The most recent copy of the "Economist" made a great case for civil war there being more likely than Lebanon. Now I see Palestinians are killing Palestinian children - has it begun?
Scott
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Ces gens, Jondalar, ils sourient. Ils me sourient. - Ayla |
Sweetsunray
storyteller
Username: Sweetsunray
Post Number: 1162
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 12, 2006 - 10:14 am: | |
Scott, I wondered the same thing yesterday when I heard about the news how these three children had been murdered.
Everyone has a motive for giving arguments. But only the arguments given matter. |
Scott
flint knapper
Username: Scott
Post Number: 1708
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 13, 2006 - 6:07 am: | |
Hamas doesn't seem to be admitting anything. I see Abbas has put troops in the streets. None win in a civil war.
Scott
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Ces gens, Jondalar, ils sourient. Ils me sourient. - Ayla |
Sweetsunray
storyteller
Username: Sweetsunray
Post Number: 1192
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 15, 2007 - 11:12 am: | |
Related, but quite different...or not
Well, last night I had a date with a guy. I knew he was middle eastern looking, but not where from. Anyway, he was Palestinian, but Israeli Palestinian... that from Palestinian family who never left the area once it was declared to be Israel. No West Bank, no Gaza.
Now the subject came up only after 1.5 hours, I guess only after I said something that alluded to it. What he related was nuanced (perhaps for my pleasure, who knows)... and focused mostly on the situation of Palestines who are of Israeli nationality. Some honest, critical questions, but also gratitude and praise.
On his criticism: He pointed out how they are systematically treated by the law, government and society as second class citizens: not all university subjects are open to them, for many years they were not allowed to have any contact with Palestines from another country (one of the main reasons he wanted to grab the opportunity to study for dental technician in Belgium... just to get a broader view), not the same government funding on several departments (said you could recognize the Arab places from the Jewish ones by the state of the roads), and job discrimination (that is they can require somebody to have done army duty, but of course for understandable reasons Palestinian Israelis do not go into the army, and so it's a veiled way to say "no Palestinian Israeli"). The most painful description he gave was of his brother who was engaged to a girl from the West Bank, but if she was to visit him he was warned he'd end up in jail for 6 months since she would be there illegally for some reason that was not explained to me. Now he didn't end up 6 months in jail fo rit, but had to do some social work for which he had to quit his job.
I do recognize, I only received such information from one side, nor did I have the time or the inclination to discuss it in depth with him fo rnow. It sounded very much close to apartheid, a world where some people are automatically regarded as 2nd class.
This man himself said he was glad that his (grand)parents had remained in the Israeli part of Palestine, he was grateful that he had been given the chance to be taught Hebrew, to be taught about Jewish history and religion. He felt it had enriched him. But he was sad that even those who chose to cooperate with the Israeli by living with them (instead of fleeing to other countries and live in refugee camps) were basically treated as suspects of treason. He also related about Jewish Israeli whom he had great respect for. He also expressed sadness that even although many Palestine Israeli do seek contact with their fellow Jewish citizen, the reverse is less true.
Most of these actions, regulations, etc can be said to have defense reasons. But how in the world do you reckon to make society work if you automatically bar people from getting whichever education they want, prevent people from getting jobs, prevent people to love or meet people they want all because they're automatically supposed to be traitors.
Anyway, perhaps there are other explanations, other regulations, etc... But I would appreciate to hear other witness information regarding this.
Everyone has a motive for giving arguments. But only the arguments given matter. |
Catfriend
gatherer
Username: Catfriend
Post Number: 173
Registered: 12-2005
| | Posted on Monday, January 15, 2007 - 9:02 pm: | |
I won't open it to an all-out discussion, which might take more or less forever At least not right now. Just a few brief comments:
1. Yes, often there's discrimination that shouldn't be there. I'm a rightist, (though it's not particularly informative), BTW.
2. It's not that hard to name a reason for the mutual distrust. F.e in numerous suicide attacks inside Israel, the Palestinian terrorists had some sort of help from Israeli citizen.
3. Speaking about apartheid might be a good thing, as a test for Israel. Let us check, though - do the various political representatives of the Arab sector (including one of the ministers) act loyally to Israel? Sometimes, yes. Sometimes, they meet the Syrian leaders (formally, a treason) and claim Israel is not a legitimate state.
4. Requiring army experience in workplaces is quite understandable, as it is an excellent way to ensure several qualities. Is it a veiled way to say "No Arabs"?
It might, I admit. But there are whole other sectors in the population not serving in the army, including many highly religious Jews (definitely not Palestinians ), new immigrants in some cases etc.
Also, with enough effort a truly loyal Arab can serve in the army (though, to tell the truth, it's a rare occasion).
Anyway, for good or for bad (there's a whole set of negative/positive sides of the medal), it's a decreasing practice.
5. Education:
Ask him to check that again, if it's significant to you. The pleasure of studying in half of the country's high education institutes (in some way) was/is mine, and Arab students are abundant. And doing well, mind you. Math, medicine, law are fields in which the Arab sector does particularly well.
School education:
In purely Arab schools, the situation is not as flowery and pleasant as described by your date. The law requiring the state flag and signs to be present in every school isn't kept. Loyalty to Israel isn't a main subject in the classrooms. Accepting Jewish teachers (happily offered by the government) isn't frequent.
6. Roads and infrastructure:
In most peripheral regions it's a painful problem, Arab villages included. Besides, many local Arab councils refuse to accept Israeli money and support. That said, it's a subject that probably needs more attention.
7. Marriages: if one of the people in question is living in a zone considered dangerous (such a declaration is not done lightly, for a whole series of reasons), communication is indeed a problem, but not impossible. It would be so much more easier if the Palestinians in the Territories would want to visit Israel just for romantic reasons...
Let's sum it all up:
Education, the vast majority of the jobs, financial support, marriages (unless somebody's living in dangerous zones), government-supported infrastructure (frequently, not accepted by local authorities) are not only part of the law, but also practiced in reality.
And finally, let us speak carefully about the Palestine Israel seeking contact with their fellow Jewish citizen. I personally witnessed the Arabs in Haifa dancing on the roofs after a terrorist attack... And trying to pass information about targets in Israel to Hizballa was done, not once nor twice.
One Ring to rule them all
One Ring to find them
One Ring to bring them all
And in the Darkness bind them! |
Pine
flint knapper
Username: Pine
Post Number: 1335
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 16, 2007 - 8:24 am: | |
Regarding primary and secondary education: There is political intervention in appointing teachers to Israeli-Arab schools. Arab teachers are under supervision of the General Security Service (shabak). There are all sorts of issues regarding the curriculum - for example in the 80s there was some controversy regarding the teaching of poetry by Israeli-Arab poets in Israeli-Arab, poems with not-so-hidden anti-Israeli sentiment. On the other hand, it is a bit ironic that Israeli Arab students at the time were required to learn some of the classical poems of the early Zionist movement - by Bialik and Tschernichovsky and so forth. I can't see how forbidding the former while requiring the latter can go over safely.
The Palestinian literature vanished on the way to the classroom
- an article on curricula for Israeli Arabic language schools, as well as mention of teaching (translated) Arabic literature in the Hebrew sector.
Other problems with general education in the Arab sector are the use of translated materials, which causes science textbooks to be less up-to-date than in the Hebrew sector as well as occasional bungling with mistranslated questions on matriculation exams.
The non-egalitarian budgeting is a big issue. The best budgeted schools are the state religious schools in the Hebrew sector - they get additional money for religious and cultural activities, have smaller classes. Then come the state schools in the Hebrew sector, followed by the state schools in the Arab sector. Worst off are schools servicing the Beduoin population - many of which serve people living in unrecognised villages, who therefore do not have proper local funding.
Higher education - I agree with Catfriend that there are plenty of Israeli Arab students in the various Israeli universities, they are vocal and politically active (even at the Technion, where political activity is restricted). I do not know what causes this, but certain areas of study at the Technion had (in my times) exceptionally high Arab representation. Geodetic engineering, for instance. In organic chemistry the faculty seemed to be populated entirely by elderly Jews from Hungary or German speaking countries, but the graduate students were almost all Israeli Arabs.
My impression from my fellow Arabic speaking students in biology was that they arrive at the Technion with some disadvantage due to language differences. On the other hand, most of them (except for the Druze, and some other minor groups) are able to enter higher education at a younger age than most Jewish students, and their studies are not disrupted by military reserve duty for weeks at a time.
Roads: I recall a trip on road #89, from Nahariyya via Ma'alot to Mt Meron. Somewhere to the east of Ma'alot what was a broad regional highway became a rugged narrow road, such that when we got to the Druze village of Sablan it was impossible to tell the highway from streets within the village. Took us a while to find where road #89 continued to the east of the village. While roads withincities and local councils are maintained by local authorities, roads between cities are the responsibility of the Council for Public Works (maatz), and the council did not seem to be investing impartially in different stretches of the same road.
It's getting late, I'll try to write more at another time.
Cohen's Law: 'Unless you fail at more than 10% of the things you try, you aren't trying enough things.' |
Sweetsunray
storyteller
Username: Sweetsunray
Post Number: 1193
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 16, 2007 - 2:52 pm: | |
Thanks for the information Pine and Catfriend. This is the stuff that's not mentioned in news. And I prefer to get as objective a view as I can. If I see him another time, I'll be asking more in depth about what he meant by his expression that some studies were not for Arabs.
Everyone has a motive for giving arguments. But only the arguments given matter. |
Catfriend
gatherer
Username: Catfriend
Post Number: 174
Registered: 12-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 16, 2007 - 3:39 pm: | |
Just don't let it ruin your date
One Ring to rule them all
One Ring to find them
One Ring to bring them all
And in the Darkness bind them! |
|
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