| Author |
Message |
    
Eco
bear cub
Username: Eco
Post Number: 34
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, February 22, 2004 - 8:51 pm: |     |
I'm wondering about open-mouth kissing. I like this kind of kissing very much. It feels good, it is very sexy and intimate, and can be used to convey feeling and mood. But how / why did we humans start kissing like that? 
My theory (which is kinda gross, but o-well) is that it started early in our evolution as a way to find out through taste what another person had recently eaten. I theorize that for one to get close enough to another to stick hir tongue in their mouth would have required some trust and a decent level of comfort, and that over time the act became more abstractly conceived as a means of displaying affection and expressing love and attraction. I've seen dogs do it... when they know and trust eachother, they'll lick the insides of eachother's mouths... yuck! You know they're not doing it to be sexy or flirtatious, they just want to see if there's anything good in there that they can get a taste of. But it's sexy when we do it, so how come we associate sexy and intimate with licking the insides of eahcother's mouths?
I'm probably way off and we kiss because of some old superstition or weird custom ... |
Pine
storyteller
Username: Pine
Post Number: 362
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Monday, February 23, 2004 - 6:17 am: | |
I think it is quite common among psychologists to say that one way to learn to treat our partners is from the way our parents treat us. Kissing could have originally been learned from parents feeding toddlers pre-masticated food. Nowadays we learn it from observing other couples, of course, so the behavior perpetuates itself on its own. |
Thalion
storyteller
Username: Thalion
Post Number: 695
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Monday, February 23, 2004 - 7:55 am: | |
That's an interesting question.
I always took it for granted that it came from feeding food to babies , but somewhere the step to being sexy must have been taken. I'm not sure if pure observing other people would be so efficient if it weren't so much fun doing, too. 
I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they pass by - Douglas Adams |
Eco
bear cub
Username: Eco
Post Number: 35
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Monday, February 23, 2004 - 5:59 pm: | |
That's interesting, Pine, I hadn't even thought os it. I wonder for how long a parent would give their child pre-masticated food? My daughter is 2 1/2 and can eat all kinds of foods on her own, even beef jerky! And she could still be nursing, so I wonder how necessary/common it would have been for mothers to give their babies pre-masticated food and how long the bahavior would have lasted. Also, would males in our early ancestors have been fatherly enough to give their babies pre-masticated food, or would it just have been the mothers? (I know that last question is fairly rhetorical, but it's an interesting subject to think about.)
So, if adult kissing was learned from watching mothers give food to their babies by mouth, it must've started out something like an adult who watched that behavior thinking "I like *that* person so I'll chew some food and give it to them with my mouth"  . I wonder how quickly it would have developed from sharing chewed up food to a more explorative "what've you got in there" thing, if that's how it went. There might have been a lot of open mouthed kissing going on between everyone, depending on how forceful the givers were and/or receptive the takers were (I think there must have been trust and comfort involved), before it eventually developed into a sexually intimate thing.
As an aside... it's funny how kissing probably started off being so gross and now people want clean and fresh mouths for it! |
Pine
storyteller
Username: Pine
Post Number: 363
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Monday, February 23, 2004 - 9:41 pm: | |
How well do toddlers chew meat (the real kind, not hot dogs, nor any ground meat products)? How small could it have been cut with stone knives? Before she became extremely picky my daughter mostly played with meat. If it was soft enough and cut small enough she would occasionally even swallow some. Now it is a rare occasion that she will allow meat to land on her plate at all. Thus I cannot be a judge of toddlers' meat-eating capabilities.
Maybe this goes back to before the control of fire. |
Eco
bear cub
Username: Eco
Post Number: 36
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 25, 2004 - 2:55 am: | |
It probably does. It probably goes back to before our ancestors started eating a lot of meat in their diet, too.
My daughter can eat steak if it is cut thinly and into small (1/2") pieces. She loves turkey and chicken, too. She is a protein freak, though... loves meat.
Are there cultures where open-mouth kissing is not a sign of affection/attraction or where they just don't do it? |
Cavebear
storyteller
Username: Cavebear
Post Number: 804
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 25, 2004 - 3:46 am: | |
I think you are all off in the wrong direction. I think it is a matter of enhanced tactile abilities around the lips due to non-sexual reasons such as grooming techniques to orally remove surface parasites (eating them).
Lips touching skin all over for practical benefit (which was surely valued by the recipient) eventually led to lips touching lips in mutual comfort.
I thought I was wrong once, but it turned out I was mistaken about that. |
Thalion
storyteller
Username: Thalion
Post Number: 705
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 25, 2004 - 10:48 am: | |
Interesting approach, but that wouldn't explain why we enjoy to stick our tongues into each others mouths.
Reconciliation seems to be another reason for kissing, but that doesn't explain how kissing has evolved. Chimpanzees do mouth-to-mouth kissing for reconciliation, and bonobos do tongue kissing and apparently find it sexy, too, but they generally use a lot of sex for handling aggression anyway.
I found an interesting article in Science from de Waal, the guy who intensively studied Bonobos.(Volume 289, Number 5479, Issue of 28 Jul 2000, pp. 586-590. )
"Primates--A Natural Heritage of Conflict Resolution
Frans B.?M. de Waal
The traditional notion of aggression as an antisocial instinct is being replaced by a framework that considers it a tool of competition and negotiation. When survival depends on mutual assistance, the expression of aggression is constrained by the need to maintain beneficial relationships. Moreover, evolution has produced ways of countering its disruptive consequences. For example, chimpanzees kiss and embrace after fights, and other nonhuman primates engage in similar "reconciliations." Theoretical developments in this field carry implications for human aggression research. From families to high schools, aggressive conflict is subject to the same constraints known of cooperative animal societies. It is only when social relationships are valued that one can expect the full complement of natural checks and balances. "
But these are possible effects of kissing, not the reason why it was invented in the first place. Apart from the food sharing, I have also seen mentioned the increased perception of pheromones (and that may be even better with tongue kissing as opposed to nose and cheek rubbing) through kissing. On the other hand, in humans, kissing seems to be learned (with those cultures who prefer nose and cheek rubbing not kissing at all).
I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they pass by - Douglas Adams |
Cavebear
flint knapper
Username: Cavebear
Post Number: 982
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, May 08, 2004 - 5:26 pm: | |
It suddenly occurred to me to wonder: Which came first, fleshy lips or kissing? Were full lips caused by evolutionary advantages from attracting mates by kissing, or was it the other way around?
I thought I was wrong once, but it turned out I was mistaken about that. |
Sorsha
bear cub
Username: Sorsha
Post Number: 1
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, May 13, 2004 - 4:28 am: | |
Hard to say just where 'kissing' came about. Don;t know that we shall ever quite know for a FACT. THis is probably one of the most unique questions that I have seen asked in a long while. I may just have to take a poll at my work place and record the findings here. oh, BTW- Hi. |
Thalion
storyteller
Username: Thalion
Post Number: 802
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 13, 2004 - 7:02 am: | |
Hi Sorsha, yes, a poll from your workplace would be an interesting read!  Great idea!
I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they pass by - Douglas Adams |
Scott
flint knapper
Username: Scott
Post Number: 1484
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 12, 2006 - 3:47 am: | |
My daughter kisses me good night, goodbye and good morning and sometimes for no reason at all. But it was a learned trait. She did not kiss me before 24 months or so. I, of course kissed her. Conversely, she hugged me from day one. The Dalai Lama (no I am not getting religious here) was in Vancouver the other day and said that we learn love from our Mother's first hugs. Hugging seems instinctual while kissing to me seems learned and while hugging gives comfort and expresses non-sexual love first off, kissing has been conditioned to show a variety of emotions and feelings from a mother's love to erotic sexuality.
Would you rather be kissed by your mom or hugged?
Scott
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Ces gens, Jondalar, ils sourient. Ils me sourient. - Ayla |
Cavebear
cave painter
Username: Cavebear
Post Number: 2850
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 12, 2006 - 11:14 am: | |
There is another explanation for kissing that could be awkward for innocent people.
As we became erect, we also changed sexual positions. I don't how to say this delicately, but we went from rear-mount to front-mount and all of a sudden (over millenia) we were face-to-face. Given our lip-smacking parasite grooming, with all our enhanced tactile lip nerves, it should not be too surprising that we learned some pleasure from touching those tactile lips together.
Thank you, Carl Sagan... |
Pine
flint knapper
Username: Pine
Post Number: 1222
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 09, 2006 - 6:51 am: | |
I wonder how much of this theorising about change in sexual positions originated from people brought up in a conservative environment in which missionary was the only 'proper' way. Humans have more than one way to do it. And if I understand Jared Diamond correctly, so do gibbons. I wonder about bonobos.
Cohen's Law: 'Unless you fail at more than 10% of the things you try, you aren't trying enough things.' |
Cavebear
cave painter
Username: Cavebear
Post Number: 2912
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 09, 2006 - 9:33 pm: | |
I wasn't aware that Jared Diamond had studied gibbon sexual activity, but I wouldn't be surprised that gibbons had tried some other ways of copulating. Primates are pretty flexible compared to most other mammals.
Bonobos (as far as my limited exposure to them through TV documentaries suggests) would find the Kama Sutra boring.
But humans are pretty inventive, too. I am reminded of a (clean but suggestive) limerick I suspect I should not post...
Thank you, Carl Sagan... |
Scott
flint knapper
Username: Scott
Post Number: 1509
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 12, 2006 - 12:36 am: | |
quote: Kissing could have originally been learned from parents feeding toddlers pre-masticated food. - Pine
I watched this just the other day. I was at a friends house for Thanksgiving and we had turkey and I asked if the 8 month old baby was going to have turkey or not. My friend's wife responded yes and proceeded to chew up a small pc and "kiss" her little boy who seemed to enjoy not only the food but the experience. This is apparently quite common in Japan - historically.
Scott
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Ces gens, Jondalar, ils sourient. Ils me sourient. - Ayla |
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