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Bartholomewcm
gatherer
Username: Bartholomewcm
Post Number: 117
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, November 02, 2003 - 3:52 pm: |     |
Starting this one for Cavebear, who seems to take a dim view of religious content in sf, particularly if it's authorial proselytizing. Certainly granted in the case of Lafayette Ronald Hubbard (AFTER the 1940's), but there's much to admire in sf's treatment of religion. (And I'm not talking about time-travel stories with tour groups infesting Calvary.)
The touchstone is Olaf Stapledon's Star-Maker, which out-Bibles the Bible on the subject of there being a Creator. (In fact, it's the one sf book to buy if you can buy only one, contains virtually every gambit in the field, all treated in the space of one or two paragraphs.) There are series, such as P.J. Farmer's Father Carmody (which almost belongs on the sf humor thread) and Zenna Henderson's People.
Perhaps the most audacious story in terms of what-if is Lester del Rey's "For I Am a Jealous People," in which mankind encounters an alien race only to discover that God has chosen THEM over US, like we're suddenly the Egyptians and THEY are the Israelites.
Likewise Michael Moorcock's "Behold the Man" (novelized), which has since been turned into a cliche by subsequent treatments, in which a researcher discovers that the historical Christ was a submental idiot and--another cliche--ends up taking his place on the Cross, with the memorable final line, "Father, they DO know what they are doing!"
Carrying much more philosophical weight despite its short length is Isaac Asimov's "The Last Answer" (not exactly a sequel, but an explicit followup to his more famous Multivac story, "The Last Question" ). An atheist dies, meets God, and finds out the astonishing (but perfectly logical) reason that He created the Universe. Interesting to Asimov fans in that he drops more than a little hint about the RL identity of his protagonist.
(BTW, EC falls easily into the religious sf category as a leading specimen of the "Pleistocene Fiction" subgenre.)
Others abound, from A Case of Conscience by James Blish to Ray Bradbury's "The Man." Dare we include Lenny Bruce's "Christ in Chicago," or is that too "looney tunes?"
(Off-topic historical note: Walt Disney is ultimately responsible for the phrase Looney Tunes. In the early 1930's Uncle Walt devised a series of one-shot cartoons to set off his Mickey Mouse series as vehicles to challenge the animators that he was sending to art school. The goal was to get to the point where he could do a feature-length animated movie ("Snow White" ), but meantime he and his people turned out a succession of shorts that monopolized the Oscar for Best Cartoon and gave us "The Three Little Pigs," "The Old Mill," "The Band Concert" and others. Through an exclusive agreement with Technicolor, Disney was the only studio working in the new three-strip process for three years, before the first live Technicolor feature. He called this series "Silly Symphonies," and among the early staff were Isidore Freleng, Hugh Harman, and Rudolf Ising. All three jumped tothe new studio of Leon Schlesinger, who had contracted with Warmer Brothers to produce Disney-type cartoons (as were at least six other studios in the early 1930's, with only Max Fleischer breaking the mold). They needed a series title and--voila! Looney Tunes. A second series started a few years later took on the label Merrie Melodies. And now you know. |
Anndee
storyteller
Username: Anndee
Post Number: 49
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, November 02, 2003 - 6:16 pm: | |
Chalker's Midnight at the Well of Souls
Clark's Childhood's End
In one of the Pern books, McCaffrey reports a discussion with a fan about the *lack* of religion on Pern.
I'll probably think of a bunch more when it's too late to edit. |
Bartholomewcm
gatherer
Username: Bartholomewcm
Post Number: 118
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, November 02, 2003 - 7:26 pm: | |
Don't know if I'd include Childhood's End (despite the original title of the first section "Guardian Angel" ), but definitely "The Star" and "The Nine Billion Names of God."
The absence of any hint of spirituality on Pern is McCaffrey's major lapse of verisimilitude. |
Annie
storyteller
Username: Annie
Post Number: 282
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, November 02, 2003 - 9:02 pm: | |
Two high-potential series ruined by a religious ending:
Clarke's Rama and Farmer's Riverworld.
And, sadly, EC seems to be heading the same way too.  |
Cavebear
storyteller
Username: Cavebear
Post Number: 217
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, November 02, 2003 - 9:26 pm: | |
Actually, I *don't* take a dim view of religion in sci-fi. What I object to is religion *masquerading* as sci-fi, which is what Hubbard's books did.
I certainly appreciated the central thematic aspect of religion in The Star and The Nine Billion Names of God. And while deities were suggested in the Lord of the Rings, they were omnipresent (appropriately) in the Silmarillion (which does a better job of Genesis that the Christian Bible does).
Anndee's inclusion of Well of Souls is an excellent one. Surely, anything or anyone that can restart the universe from the beginning has to be a god or be using powers granted from a god. Chalker is my favorite author, and deities are required for his universe. His universe does *not* run on it's own.
I have no problem at all suspending my disbelief for the sake of a story. Indeed, sometimes I read a story that involves religion and think I would like to be part of it. Where deities are presented as reality in sci-fi, I accept that as "reality" for the purpose of the story.
Wouldn't it be interesting to discover that some universes really have deities involved and some don't? 
Yesterday, my cat came when called. That worries me; I hope she's not ill! |
Pine
storyteller
Username: Pine
Post Number: 203
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, November 02, 2003 - 9:33 pm: | |
Asimov mostly joked about religion, brought it to the absurd conclusion. An example would be his story about how God brings about the end of the world - but only with what all human cultures (of the time?) agree upon.
Clarke, even when not collaborating with a religious writer such as Gentry Lee, takes the religion of his characters seriously - hence the doubts of the priest in 'The Star'.
For a story about conflicts between religious and secular needs, see 'The Fountains of Paradise' - where the optimal location for the space elevator coincides with the most sacred site of the local religion. Having lived most of my life in Israel, where you can't turn over some rocks without stumbling upon a burial site of one religious group or other the dilemma in this story has special significance for me.
The space colonies created in 'The Songs of Distant Earth' purposely had all mention of religion removed from their databanks. there's an interesting chapter where an earthborn character tries to explain to a colony-born character what religion is and its role in earth history.
One interesting aspect of SF and fantasy is the way they allow one to toy with imaginary, made up religions. I remember reading a book whose Hebrew title would translate back as 'A Time of Changes'. The author might have been Silverberg, but maybe not. It was about a society that believed that any reference to oneself, the use of the words 'I', 'me', 'myself', 'mine' etc was sinful and dirty. (How did they go through toddlerhood?)
Btw, regarding Rama, I think there was also an anti-family planning message there (not surprising with all the Catholicism) - accidentally conceived kids turn out just fine, carefully planned ones have something seriously wrong with them. |
Cavebear
storyteller
Username: Cavebear
Post Number: 220
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, November 02, 2003 - 10:27 pm: | |
I recall a story I read but do not remember the author or title. A powerful being was imprisoned, collects his energies for a long time and escapes to a random planet. The planet is Earth. He is eventually confronted and recaptured by another powerful being. At the end, the imprisoned one complains "But I am God". The capturer replies "And I am Man".
Anyone recall this one? It seems like Asimov, but I'm not certain. It seemed an interesting juxtaposition to the deity discussion in sci-fi.
Yesterday, my cat came when called. That worries me; I hope she's not ill! |
(Unregistered Guest)
visitor
| | Posted on Sunday, November 02, 2003 - 10:31 pm: | |
Pine: Have you read Jack Dann's all-Jewish anthology Wandering Stars? Includes a somewhat-unexpurgated glossary of Yiddish by Harlan Ellison that us very useful if you want to get ALL the jokes in Mel Brooks' "Blazing Saddles."
Asimov (born in Soviet Russia) tried to deal with his Jewishness in one called "Unto the Fourth Generation." Are you referring to his story "The Last Trump," in which the hornblower argues God out of Judgment Day by pointing out that the Bible does not specify WHOSE calendar is being used? (In a typically Asimovian twist, God agrees to postpone The End until the day when all of earth learns to live in peace enough that everyone can agree on one calendar.)
Cavebear: Your comments indicate that you've GOT to read Stapledon's Star-Maker, in which the author makes just that assumption. |
Annie
storyteller
Username: Annie
Post Number: 284
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 03, 2003 - 1:11 am: | |
Arrrggh, Mike! 
Now that you are using your home computer again, please save your cookies, so you don't get logged out all the time! I'll copy here the explanation I posted a while ago:
quote:In the Preferences section of your profile there are two lines dealing with saving cookies:
"Remember my username and password in a cookie"
and
"Clear the cookie when I exit my browser"
If you check the first and uncheck the second, you should not be asked for your details every time.
Back on topic...
CB: -- Where deities are presented as reality in sci-fi, I accept that as "reality" for the purpose of the story. --
Same here. So as not to leave Heinlein out of this thread,  one such example would be his Job.
Another very enjoyable (though not exactly SF, but close enough) series, in which gods are a part of the setup, is Pratchett's Discworld that I just mentioned in the SF humor thread too.  |
Cavebear
storyteller
Username: Cavebear
Post Number: 226
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 03, 2003 - 1:31 am: | |
"Job" was a very interesting story.
Yesterday, my cat came when called. That worries me; I hope she's not ill! |
Bartholomewcm
gatherer
Username: Bartholomewcm
Post Number: 121
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 03, 2003 - 3:54 am: | |
Got me stumped, Cavebear. Up to the information about the last line, it sounded like at least half a dozen other stories I've read.
Just remembered this one: "God," that is, the Creator of the Universe, is not powerful enough to hold His creation together, because it has grown too complicated. Therefore, he is asleep within the consciousness of a single human being (passed on from generation to generation). One day, He begins to wake up bit by bit, and the Universe begins to disappear piece by piece (the planet Mercury, the octave between middle- abd high-C, etc.). It's up to the man in whose consciousness he resides to get things under control by putting Him back to sleep, but an evil villain wants to gain control of the entity that he harbors (sounds sorta like Leguin's Lathe of Heaven, doesn't it?). The story is "Tonight the Sky Will Fall" by Daniel Galouye. |
Pine
storyteller
Username: Pine
Post Number: 205
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 03, 2003 - 7:14 am: | |
bart, don't forget that the point of 'The Last Trump' was that since people disagreed about most aspects of the contents of the end of times (except for a belief in some sort of resurrection) humanity would be destined to everlasting boredom - existence with no contents. I suppose the atheists should save the situation by doubting resurrection.
Haven't read Dann's anthology. Seems very diasporic. Ellison has a story where a Jewish Mother discovers she can outdo herself by haunting her son after her death - but that one is cultural, not religious. |
Bartholomewcm
gatherer
Username: Bartholomewcm
Post Number: 122
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 03, 2003 - 1:47 pm: | |
Ellison's piece in Dann's book (over 30 years old, BTW), is a story about an archetypal Jewish mother whose son is marrying an alien. |
Cavebear
storyteller
Username: Cavebear
Post Number: 244
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 10, 2003 - 8:24 pm: | |
I found it, I found it, I found it!
Evensong, by Lester del Rey. It appeared in Dangerous Visions, 1967. I cannot find a transcript on the net, but it is only 5 pages long. Perhaps I can scan it (I've been meaning to buy a scanner anyway for other purposes; my old HP is not compatible with Windows XP). It is very reminiscent of "The Star", but I should have thought of del Rey. It wasn't until I thought to search through my anthology books that I found it. It seems not to have been published other than Dangerous Visions (edited by Harlan Ellison).
Bart, do you have the original Dangerous Visions?
Yesterday, my cat came when called. That worries me; I hope she's not ill! |
Bartholomewcm
gatherer
Username: Bartholomewcm
Post Number: 134
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 10, 2003 - 9:17 pm: | |
And the followup, Again, Dangerous Visions. |
Cavebear
storyteller
Username: Cavebear
Post Number: 246
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 10, 2003 - 9:26 pm: | |
So, what did you think of Evensong"? I had Again, Dangerous Visions once, but it seems to have "drifted" to some other person. I can't find it anymore. I don't often lend books, but it seems to be a "socks in the dryer" thing. Some books just disappear over time and you never know for sure what happened to them.
Yesterday, my cat came when called. That worries me; I hope she's not ill! |
Annie
storyteller
Username: Annie
Post Number: 294
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 10, 2003 - 10:18 pm: | |
I'm lucky today...  There you are: Evensong
Just read it. Very powerful little story, interesting, touching in a way; hard to say whether it makes me feel more sorry for the defeated God or jubilant at the power achieved by mankind.
Worth reading, anyway - thanks for the reference. |
Cavebear
storyteller
Username: Cavebear
Post Number: 252
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 10, 2003 - 10:36 pm: | |
Wonderful, Annie. Thank you so much! It is a fascinating little story. One of those I think of as "how short a story is it possible to write yet seem complete and really compelling".
I'm so glad you could display this story!
Yesterday, my cat came when called. That worries me; I hope she's not ill! |
Bartholomewcm
gatherer
Username: Bartholomewcm
Post Number: 139
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 11, 2003 - 3:48 am: | |
"Evensong" seem quite the allegorization of del Rey's "For I Am a Jealous People," might even be considered a sequel. |
Matt
hunter
Username: Matt
Post Number: 249
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 23, 2005 - 7:34 pm: | |
After some hesitation, I'm reviving this thread instead of beginning a new one for Madeleine L'Engles' A Wrinkle in Time, which I found interesting enough to read cover-to-cover last evening. At any rate, a "God" and the Christian Bible were mentioned perhaps a half dozen to a dozen times throughout the book, much (I thought) to its detriment. The religious aspects felt wholly unnecessary, as though some editor had gone through and tacked them on without actually reading the rest of the novel. That probably didn't happen of course, but the internal logic of the science fiction seems more hindered than helped by pulling a deity into it. Had I read this book in my theistic days, I think I'd have felt the same way.
I wonder whether religion plays a more coherent role in the sequels (which I have yet to read)? Does anyone know what I'm talking about here, or can anyone remember enough about A Wrinkle in Time to agree or disagree?
"Gentlemen! You can't fight in here, this is the War Room!" - from Dr. Strangelove |
Smee
bear cub
Username: Smee
Post Number: 13
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 23, 2005 - 11:49 pm: | |
Don't forget of course "The Sparrow" and the sequel "Children of God". They are about a priest travelling to another planet. Obviously there's a lot more to it than that! They are very good and well worth reading, if you can plough through the religious stuff. |
Matt
hunter
Username: Matt
Post Number: 267
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 06, 2005 - 6:29 pm: | |
Well, just yesterday I read the sequel to Wrinkle, namely A Wind in the Door. While I didn't find this story to be as gripping plot-wise as its predecessor and the central themes seemed somewhat repetitive, the religious aspects are more subtle and better connected IMO to the main idea of the plot. While as an atheist I was slightly put off by some of this, I have to give points for Wind's internal consistency.
I'm not sure if I'll read any more of L'Engle, though I'd be the first to admit that she can spin an interesting yarn.
hike your own hike |
Cavebear
flint knapper
Username: Cavebear
Post Number: 1941
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, April 07, 2005 - 1:23 am: | |
Matt, while I do not particularly enjoy stories based on religious themes, I have never hesitated to accept them in the sci-fi "willing suspension of disbelief" when they are important to the story. The religious aspects of 'Dune', for example never bothered me much, and I've certainly enjoyed many fantasy stories involving sorcery and/or mythological creatures.
So, it wouldn't stop me from reading a book with religion themes, and the better it involved that in the story (internal consistency), the more I would accept it.
The speed of time is 3,600 seconds per hour... |
Rhi
hunter
Username: Rhi
Post Number: 311
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, April 07, 2005 - 2:33 am: | |
Some of the books in the 8 part Wrinkle series are really good, and mostly non-religious. The only other one with really religious overtones is Many Waters, which is a spin on the Noah's Ark story (with mini mammoths, Seraphim, Nephilim, and unicorns).
And since L'Engle's two main serieses, Chronos and Kairos (ie, the Wrinkle series and the Austin's series) have many cross over characters, I'll also mention A Ring of Endless Light, which isn't so much about religion, but about dying (and also communication with dolphins). I read it just after my cousin died, and it seemed to help a bit.
I haven't read anything but the Chronos and Kairos, so I don't know how religious her other books can get, but it seems that most of her writing merely refers to religion rather than really making it important to the plot (Wind and Waters aside, and I don't remember most of the Austin books that well, but they are mainly geared to younger people).
Mostly Harmless |
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Prehistorical Fiction, SF and Fantasy