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JADE STARS * People, Places, Cultures and Resources * Neanderthals * Did the cold cause Neanderthal extinction? * Archive through October 10, 2004 < Previous Next >

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Scott
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Username: Scott

Post Number: 237
Registered: 5-2003
Posted on Saturday, January 24, 2004 - 5:53 am:   Edit PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here is a very interesting article published this week in New Scientist.

This has been posited before. I will reserve comment until I have digested the article more thoroughly.

Enjoy.

Scott

Big chill killed off the Neanderthals


quote:

Big chill killed off the Neanderthals

It is possibly the longest-running murder mystery of them all. What, or even who, killed humankind's nearest relatives, the Neanderthals who once roamed Europe before dying out almost 30,000 years ago?

Suspects have ranged from the climate to humans themselves, and the mystery has deeply divided experts. Now 30 scientists have come together to publish the most definitive answer yet to this enigma.

They say Neanderthals simply did not have the technological know-how to survive the increasingly harsh winters. And intriguingly, rather than being Neanderthal killers, the original human settlers of Europe almost suffered the same fate.

Led by Tjeerd van Andel of the University of Cambridge, a team of archaeologists, anthropologists, geologists and climate modellers have compiled a vast new set of biological, environmental and social evidence on life between 20,000 and 40,000 years ago.

It includes data from sediment cores and 400 or so archaeological sites, and information gleaned from fossil bones and stone tools. To this they have added the most up-to-date climate models, and radiometric dates of human and Neanderthal sites and artefacts.

The result is a definitive series of maps covering climate change over time, the appearance of animal and plant populations, and how human and Neanderthal communities migrated with the seasons. The resolution is so good that, for the first time, researchers can reliably trace the movements of both hominid species.

Ice cores recovered from Greenland in the 1970s show that Europe's climate varied hugely during the last ice age, especially in the period between 70,000 and 20,000 years ago. Cold glacial periods were punctuated by warmer times, and the average temperature could rise and fall several degrees within a decade or so.

Studies of permafrost patterns, the remains of small animals and pollen grains, as well as fossil bones, show that such changes had a dramatic effect on the flora and fauna of the time, including Homo sapiens and Neanderthals.

The maps show that, facing temperatures that plummeted to -10&deg;C in winter (see map), Neanderthals retreated south from northern Europe 30,000 years ago, a migration which coincided exactly with the southern march of the ice sheets (Neanderthal and Modern Humans in the European Landscape of the Last Glaciation: Archaeological Results of the Stage 3 Project).

It is surprising "the extent to which Neanderthals seem to have been deterred by the cold, and retreated as the going got tough," says archaeologist William Davies, a co-editor of the report based at University of Southampton, UK.


The maps also reveal that the earliest modern humans, the Aurignacian people, who appeared around 40,000 years ago, could not cope with the glacial cold either. They retreated south until 25,000 years ago when they were reduced to a few refuges, such as southwest France and the shores of the Black Sea.

The new maps show that even at the height of the last glacial period, 18,000 to around 22,000 years ago, continental Europe supported extensive grasslands which were fodder for huge numbers of migrant animals such as reindeer and bison.

The archaeological evidence strongly suggests that both hominids coexisted in southern Europe for thousands of years, but competed for ever diminishing resources. And that might have been the end for both Homo sapiens and Neanderthals but for the arrival of the technologically advanced Gravettians.

The Gravettians appeared in eastern Europe 29,000 to 30,000 years ago complete with flash new tools, such as javelin-like throwing spears and fishing nets, which allowed them to catch a greater range of prey.

They also had clothing to keep the cold out, such as sewn furs and woven textiles, and possibly more specialised social structures. Their ability to tough out the colder climes dominating Europe 18,000 to 25,000 years ago revitalised the human population.

The Neanderthals, however, without either new blood or new technology, found it impossible to survive and died out, probably around 28,000 years ago.

For Neanderthal expert Paul Pettitt of the University of Sheffield, UK, the evidence that climate adversely affected the Aurignacian people as much as the Neanderthals is fascinating. When the going got tough in northern Europe, says Pettitt, both adopted a "get out of the kitchen strategy".

In contrast, Gravettians used their technological prowess "to reorganise the way the kitchen was used". Pettitt says that step was just as revolutionary as becoming modern Homo sapiens in the first place.



~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Ces gens, Jondalar, ils sourient. Ils me sourient. - Ayla
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Annie
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Username: Annie

Post Number: 593
Registered: 5-2003
Posted on Saturday, January 24, 2004 - 1:06 pm:   Edit PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Interesting article, thanks, Scott. :-)

The cold may well have been the basic cause underlying Nanderthal extinction, but that doesn't mean the modern humans didn't help in as much as they could. The article says they "competed for ever diminishing resources", and I don't think that refers to friendly competition.

Even if the arrival of the Gravettians extended the modern humans' range of prey, I doubt they then left the menu items they shared with the Neanderthals to them - the competition for those sources probably continued, and the modern humans now had better weapons, the use of which was unlikely to have been restricted to prey only.
semi-professional floccinaucinihilipilificatrix
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Pine
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Username: Pine

Post Number: 322
Registered: 5-2003
Posted on Saturday, January 24, 2004 - 10:44 pm:   Edit PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Didn't the Neandertals survive a previous ice-age in Europe? Or did they move out for a while at its peak and moved back in again as conditions improved? So that last time around they couldn't move back in because the Gravettians were there?
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Cavebear
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Username: Cavebear

Post Number: 658
Registered: 9-2003
Posted on Sunday, January 25, 2004 - 12:12 am:   Edit PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I've just realized that I haven't received my New Scientist magazine in 2 weeks. Hmmm. I'll have to call them. Good to see they didn't cease publication, though!

About the posted information. WOW! The idea of being able to track the movements of the Neanderthals and the Cro-Magnons is astonishing. It just goes to show how the accumulation of information can lead to remarkable results through analysis.

Annie - You suggest that the Cro-Magnons killed the Neanderthals. It is certainly possible; hunting parties seeking the same prey may have fought over the prey. But I get the sense from the article that populations of both were so low at the time that they may never have met. At least not to the extent that killing each other had an impact on the total populations. It would be interesting if more information on that question came to light, though.


I thought I was wrong once, but it turned out I was mistaken about that.
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Pine
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Username: Pine

Post Number: 326
Registered: 5-2003
Posted on Sunday, January 25, 2004 - 2:33 am:   Edit PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The populations were small, but so were the available areas at the worst of the cold. Especially considering natural barriers such as glaciers and bodies of water. So could the two populations have been cornered into a tight spot?
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Annie
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Username: Annie

Post Number: 597
Registered: 5-2003
Posted on Sunday, January 25, 2004 - 3:32 am:   Edit PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I was thinking particularly of water as a restricting factor, and not as a barrier, but as a necessity. Europe is rich in rivulets and streams, but wouldn't most of the minor water sources have frozen solid at those temperatures? The humans may have been able to melt enough water for their needs, but what about the prey they followed? If the animals needed water, the hunters would have had to follow herds that in turn followed a limited number of unfrozen water sources. It seems to me that the chances of the groups meeting each other would not be insignificant under such circumstances.
semi-professional floccinaucinihilipilificatrix
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Cavebear
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Username: Cavebear

Post Number: 667
Registered: 9-2003
Posted on Sunday, January 25, 2004 - 4:25 am:   Edit PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Good point. It is possible that even small populations might be forced into close contact.
I thought I was wrong once, but it turned out I was mistaken about that.
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Scott
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Username: Scott

Post Number: 239
Registered: 5-2003
Posted on Sunday, January 25, 2004 - 4:52 am:   Edit PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Pine, the Neanderthals had survived several previous *ice-ages* (oxygen isotope 6, early 5e, 5d, 5b and 4. While they had occupied Europe during those times, during periods of cold, they *retreated* to the Levant (Kebara, Amud, Tabun in Israel) without a problem. Indeed, during Isotope 4 they still inhabited most of Europe quite comfortably.

Oxygen Isotope Stages

They were a cold-climate adapted species - I highly doubt that the cold 30 kyr BP had much to do with their lack of success. They had been in decline for ten thousands years before that - so it isn't the whole picture.

There is scant evidence to support that they were victims of some sort of genocidal war fought over resources, but there is not doubt that they were outcompeted. I suspect that a prolonged drop in TFR (total fertility rate) had a lot to do with it. This of course could have been related to competition and/or the cold - but I highly doubt that it was one single element, as the authors of the above article suggest, that caused their demise.

Scott
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Ces gens, Jondalar, ils sourient. Ils me sourient. - Ayla
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Don
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Username: Don

Post Number: 230
Registered: 5-2003
Posted on Sunday, January 25, 2004 - 7:44 pm:   Edit PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Can you give more info about oxygen isotope 6, early 5e, 5d, 5b and 4 that you mention? It seems to be related to time, but I am unfamiliar with the concept.

But that's a great graph of sea level vs time.

Don
take what you want and pay for it
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Scott
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Username: Scott

Post Number: 240
Registered: 5-2003
Posted on Monday, January 26, 2004 - 1:15 am:   Edit PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Oxygen isotope dating is based on the ratio of 16O and 18O in the atmosphere. Over generalising, H216O is evaporated more easily (lighter isotope) and during colder periods, with lots of evaporation from the oceans, this is deposited in glaciers (such as in Greenland) as snow. Core sampling and then isotope analysis can then determine average temperatures for the period. The diagram in the previous posts puts seal levels against the various stages of relatively stable isotope ratios, hence the sea-level drop corresponds to a slightly previous and sustained temperature drop.

We have analyses for over a million years and ice cores are not always used. We can get the same analysis out of coral remains and also foraminifera and diatomic remains from ocean sediments. These have of course been cross referenced with the ice core stats.

Applying a fourier analysis to the isotope ratio results, shows a clear cyclical raltionship that repeats every 100,000, 41,000 and 23,000 years. Hence we are about due for another ice age.



In the above diagram you can see that stage 6 was as cold as 2 and that Neanderthals were quite comfortable in 4 and 3 in Europe, yet by the end of 3, they had disappeared. So, I don't buy that they were done in by just the cold, as the New Scientist article would suggest.

Scott
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Ces gens, Jondalar, ils sourient. Ils me sourient. - Ayla
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Don
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Username: Don

Post Number: 231
Registered: 5-2003
Posted on Monday, January 26, 2004 - 9:26 am:   Edit PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Another great graph.

I did know the bit about the oxygen isotope ratios being a measure of cold and warmer periods, but I hadn't realised they had been codified in that way, assigned to particular sets of data.

So the numbers have nothing to do with some property of oxygen, but have been arbitrarily assigned to the peaks and troughs in the 16O / 18O ratios?
take what you want and pay for it
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Cavebear
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Username: Cavebear

Post Number: 668
Registered: 9-2003
Posted on Monday, January 26, 2004 - 6:18 pm:   Edit PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If the Neanderthals retreated to the Levant during previous ice ages, perhaps this last time they found their way relatively blocked by the more advanced modern humans. It wouldn't require warfare, just being kept locked up in the harsher climate of Europe.

While there may not have been very many modern humans, they would need only to have already been occupying the best passage routes and food resources.
I thought I was wrong once, but it turned out I was mistaken about that.
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Scott
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Username: Scott

Post Number: 241
Registered: 5-2003
Posted on Tuesday, January 27, 2004 - 6:07 am:   Edit PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yup Don, even numbers (stages) are cold and odd are warm events (for the most part). Stages (like 5) are sometimes subdivided to reflect mini, but drastic fluctuations within their respective stage.

cavebear, I agree with you that this might be a plausible explanation, but Neanderthals and Cro-magnon lived side by side for 70,000 years, starting in the Levant - often mere kilometers apart. Plus, population densities were so sparse and migration such a slow process, that I find it difficult to believe that the Neanderthals would have ever found themselves blocked in, much less comphrehended it, if they were - even temporarily. The exception is the Danube winter highway - Jean didn't pick that as Jon and Ayla's route for no reason - though I find it hard to believe that they didn't traverse it, as opposed to the banks - as Auel seems to portray. The Mackenzie in the Yukon is such a winter highway in winter - the Yukon was a major winter highway for gold rush miners are the end of the 19th century. I could conceive that Cro-magnons might have blocked that route - but there were others. If this impinged the Neanderthal's ability to keep their TFR up - then yes it might have contributed to their demise, but that so far has not been proven.

Scott
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Ces gens, Jondalar, ils sourient. Ils me sourient. - Ayla
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Cavebear
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Username: Cavebear

Post Number: 674
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Posted on Tuesday, January 27, 2004 - 9:14 pm:   Edit PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I knew they both occupied the Levant but I thought it was at different times, advancing and receding with the climate fluctuations. Is it known now that they occupied the Levant at the same time?
I thought I was wrong once, but it turned out I was mistaken about that.
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Pine
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Username: Pine

Post Number: 657
Registered: 5-2003
Posted on Friday, September 10, 2004 - 2:14 pm:   Edit PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This might be a good place to post the following:
Neanderthal Life No Tougher Than That Of 'Modern' Inuits


quote:

Guatelli-Steinberg has spent the last decade investigating tiny defects -- linear enamel hypoplasia -- in tooth enamel from primates, modern and early humans. These defects serve as markers of periods during early childhood when food was scarce and nutrition was low.

These tiny horizontal lines and grooves in tooth enamel form when the body faces either a systemic illness or a severely deficient diet. In essence, they are reminders of times when the body’s normal process of forming tooth enamel during childhood simply shut down for a period of time.

“Looking at these fossilized teeth, you can easily see these defects that showed Neanderthals periodically struggled nutritionally,” she said. “But I wanted to know if that struggle was any harder than that of more modern humans.”

To find that answer, she turned to two collections of skeletal remains: One was a collection of Neanderthal skulls at least 40,000 years old from various sites across Europe; the other was a set of remains of Inuit Eskimos from Point Hope, Alaska. The Inuit remains, some 2,500 years old, are maintained by the American Museum of Natural History in New York.

She microscopically examined teeth from the Neanderthal skulls for signs of linear enamel hypoplasia, as well as other normal growth increments in teeth called perikymata, and compared their prevalence with those from the Inuit skulls.

“The evidence shows that Neanderthals were no worse off than the Inuit who lived in equally harsh environmental conditions,” she said, despite the fact that the Inuit use more advanced technology.

“It is somewhat startling that Neanderthals weren’t suffering as badly as people had thought, relative to a modern human group (the Inuits).”

Guatelli-Steinberg’s examination of perikymata offered snapshots of Neanderthal survival. Smaller than the linear enamel hypoplasia, perikymata are even tinier horizontal lines on the teeth surface. Each one represents about eight days of enamel growth so by counting their number, researchers can gauge the speed of tooth development – more perikymata mean slower growth of the tooth surface.

Guatelli-Steinberg counted perikymata within linear enamel hypoplasias, and was able to gauge how long these episodes of physiological stress lasted. The perikymata showed that periods of up to three months of starvation for both the Neanderthals and the Inuit were not uncommon. In fact, Guatelli-Steinberg found that Inuit teeth showed significantly more perikymata than did the Neanderthals, suggesting that the Inuit experienced stress episodes that lasted slightly longer than did those of the Neanderthals. She is looking ahead to do a similar comparison of tooth defects among the European Cro-Magnon who thrived after the Neanderthals disappeared. Coupled with the results of this project, and that of earlier work with non-human primates, she hopes to improve researchers’ understanding of just what information these tooth defects might reveal.



"Mommy, you are not always wrong!" - my daughter, almost 6.
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Cavebear
flint knapper
Username: Cavebear

Post Number: 1309
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Posted on Friday, September 10, 2004 - 7:44 pm:   Edit PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It would be interesting to see a comparison of Neanderthal and Cro-magnon teeth of the same time period. If such fossil evidence exists from the same locations at the same time, it might provide documentation of Cro-magnon success under the same conditions.

AFAIK, that it isn't certain (i.e., there are theories of Cro-magnon success other than better food acquisition).
I thought I was wrong once, but it turned out I was mistaken about that.
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Sidescraper_gal
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Username: Sidescraper_gal

Post Number: 232
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Friday, September 10, 2004 - 10:56 pm:   Edit PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Cavebear and all:

I think larger group size may have had something to do with it. Neandertal populations tended, as I understand it, to be awfully small.
Anne G
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Cavebear
flint knapper
Username: Cavebear

Post Number: 1313
Registered: 9-2003
Posted on Saturday, September 11, 2004 - 10:43 pm:   Edit PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well, that's one of the theories of why the Neanderthals died out, but it is the reason why I would be interested in a more direct tooth analysis. If both Neanderthal and Cro-magnon went through equal periods of starvation, it would suggest other reasons for the success of the Cro-magnons. But if there were differences in the tooth rings,it would explain a lot.
I thought I was wrong once, but it turned out I was mistaken about that.
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Scott
storyteller
Username: Scott

Post Number: 453
Registered: 5-2003
Posted on Tuesday, September 14, 2004 - 5:05 am:   Edit PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes they were Anne, but as you know, so were Cro-magnon groups until the Gravettian.

The same data was used to suggest that Neanderthals matured at a faster rate.

Neanderthal Dentition - faster rate of growth?

Scott
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Ces gens, Jondalar, ils sourient. Ils me sourient. - Ayla
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Sidescraper_gal
hunter
Username: Sidescraper_gal

Post Number: 234
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Wednesday, September 15, 2004 - 10:54 pm:   Edit PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Scott:

Yeah, I've seen that study, too. And a woman on another anthropology list I'm on suggested that the tooth data on "modern" Australian Native people was similar. Nobody suggests *they* mature any faster than anybody else.
Anne G
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Scott
storyteller
Username: Scott

Post Number: 460
Registered: 5-2003
Posted on Tuesday, September 21, 2004 - 2:57 am:   Edit PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Acutally some do suggest that they mature faster than so-called moderns. This has been the subject of some considerable debate in the archaeology community. It is difficult to tell. Neanderthal children seem to be rather robust and precocious - but still, assemble all the evidence and it is still scant.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Ces gens, Jondalar, ils sourient. Ils me sourient. - Ayla
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Sidescraper_gal
hunter
Username: Sidescraper_gal

Post Number: 238
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Tuesday, September 21, 2004 - 10:58 pm:   Edit PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Scott:

I'm not sure the studies, which come mostly from teeth, mean a whole lot. I've just gotten through reading a study(via the July-August 2004 Journal of Human Evolution, that Neandertals and "traditional" Inuit people suffered about the same amount of dietary stress as suggested by marks in their teeth. So I really don't know what this means, and frankly, I think it requires a lot further study.
Anne G
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Cavebear
flint knapper
Username: Cavebear

Post Number: 1325
Registered: 9-2003
Posted on Wednesday, September 22, 2004 - 2:40 am:   Edit PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This is where you guys start to lose me in the discussion. I don't want to spend $491 for a personal subscription to 'Journal of Human Evolution' that provides 6 issues per year. Books don't come out fast enough to keep up with the latest information, and I can't find it on the internet recent enough to be useful.

It appears I have to bow out of the discussions. That's a shame, really, but the discussion has moved to a point where I am not willing to pay the cost of keeping up.


I thought I was wrong once, but it turned out I was mistaken about that.
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Sidescraper_gal
hunter
Username: Sidescraper_gal

Post Number: 240
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Wednesday, September 22, 2004 - 5:57 pm:   Edit PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Cavebear:

You don't have to spend all that money on a subscription. If you have access to a library which provides the journal, you can read the "teeth"study yourself. I did yesterday. There is also another article of some interest, which was discussed in various venues last year, about early human occupation of arctic and subarctic regions. It's possible that some of these people might have been Neandertals. But all this aside, if you don't have such access, you might be able to ask someone here who does, for a copy of the article. They're worth reading.
Anne G
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Cavebear
flint knapper
Username: Cavebear

Post Number: 1363
Registered: 9-2003
Posted on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 11:54 pm:   Edit PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Back to the Neanderthal extinction question...

Given that the Neanderthals died out shortly after H sapiens arrived in Europe, and with new studies suggesting that H sapiens interacted with H erectus in Asia 25-50 kya (at which point the H erectus shortly went extinct - unless they are all living today in N Korea), I am beginning to think there is something lethal about us.

Is it possible we H sapiens are just phenomenomally-lethal genetically-resistant disease-carriers who infected every other Homo type we met? Perhaps we are Homo TyphoidMary!

After all, we certainly did a job on even our own kind (the Native Americans) with only 12,000 years of isolation.
I thought I was wrong once, but it turned out I was mistaken about that.

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