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Scott
storyteller
Username: Scott
Post Number: 565
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 16, 2004 - 5:07 am: |     |
Anne, I wondered too where you got the *Thal and cavebear are creastionists* idea...
I stand by my assertion that not all of Cremo's book is garbage (most, but not all). Treasures can still be found in garbage. For example, I absolutely disagree with Marija Gimbutas - she was basically an idiot - yet I also found some of her work very lucid and informative. She also highlighted the need for more research on mesolithic and neolithic Eurasia and the idea of matricarchal socities - that was her biggest contribution. I view Cremo likewise. Do you own a copy of Forbidden Archeology (the full version, not the annotated one)? Have you read any of Cremo's mainstream work? He is not exactly the village idiot.
I find it dangerous to judge a book simply by its publisher and/or financial supporter(s).
quote:I wish you folks wouldn't confuse "openmindedness" with just "accepting" everything you read on its face value. . . if you truly are not creationists, then you have to reject religiously-based notions of human development and evolution, at least in the physical sense.
No one is claiming to accept things at face value here. I don't. cavebear certainly doesn't. Thalion doesn't. Ted doesn't. AnnDee doesn't, da bear doesn't......you get the idea. the majority of posters here have a rigorous education in *not accepting anything at face value*.
What's wrong with religious based development? Have you read the God Gene? Interesting read. The human condition and development has obviously been affected by religion for a very long time - there may even be an evolutionary advantage to it. Creationism is just a quaint side development.
quote:Religious ideas of human development have their place --- they tell you something about how to live. But they don't tell you anything about how humans came to be.
I disagree. Many peoples are DEFINED by their religion, historically and even in the present. Are you suggesting that who the Israelis are today has nothing to do with their religion of the past 4000 years?
Most of Cremo's work in FA does not mention religion at all. Most of it is a collage of supposedly unexplained archaeological finds - ancient batteries, ancient foot prints, gold chains in coal seams, supposed purging of finds contrary to accepted evolution... Are you saying that *real* archaeologists have never fabricated anything to further their own agenda?
quote:The job of science is to explain the physical world. And the theory of evolution best explains the physical development of human beings from an apelike ancestor. The ideas in Forbidden Archaeology do not. And that is why I reject them.
You had better re-read the book. Where does Cremo say, in FA, we came from? And science explains the physical world very well. Catholics accept the big bang for example. The only difference is what happened or existed at the moment of the big bang (not attoseconds after, but at) - something that neither science, nor religion can explain.
To dismiss people's work based on their religious beliefs is ludicrous. I assume you don't dismiss Newton? - who by the way, wrote ten times as much about God than he did about what he considered more trivial matters such as gravity.
Scott
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Ces gens, Jondalar, ils sourient. Ils me sourient. - Ayla |
Sweetsunray
hunter
Username: Sweetsunray
Post Number: 315
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 16, 2004 - 4:03 pm: | |
Oh and Scott, Newton was crazy for Alchemism too. Before he started his work on the laws of movement he fervently tried to turn lead into gold.
Everyone has a motive for giving arguments. But only the arguments given matter. |
Sidescraper_gal
hunter
Username: Sidescraper_gal
Post Number: 260
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 16, 2004 - 11:47 pm: | |
SCott:
Exactly what mainstream work are you talking about? As far as I know, he has tried to get a hearing at the (I think it's called) World ARchaeological Congress, and has gotten nowhere. Has he written in any refereed archaeological journals? If so, which ones, and what articles? I would like to check these out, if you could give me references.
Anne G |
Da_bear
storyteller
Username: Da_bear
Post Number: 498
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 17, 2004 - 1:05 am: | |
OMIGOD!! A reference challenge.
Stand back, THE Scott might need the breathing room.
da bear, instigator.
If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice. |
Miisa
storyteller
Username: Miisa
Post Number: 479
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 17, 2004 - 7:55 am: | |
Take cover!!!!
 |
Ted
gatherer
Username: Ted
Post Number: 74
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 17, 2004 - 8:43 am: | |
Aaaarrgggghhh!
The sky is falling! The sky is falling!
GoooooooooScoooooootttttt!!!!!!!!!!!
Do not go gentle into that good night...Rage, rage against the dying of the light |
Rhi
storyteller
Username: Rhi
Post Number: 229
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 18, 2004 - 3:22 am: | |
You all are mean (if right!)
Anne, if Scott even refers that he has a reference, he usually has more references than an average person can get through in two years.
But good for you for asking him to produce them! They will be valuable to us all.
I'm no Cremo expert, but I Googled him, and it says he is a member of the World Archaelogical Congress, which you referred to. The site I found also had these references to his works:
Recent Books:
Cremo, M.A. (2003) Human Devolution: A Vedic Alternative to Darwin's Theory, Bhaktivedanta Book Publishing.
Cremo, M.A. (1998) Forbidden Archeology's Impact. Los Angeles, Bhaktivedanta Book Publishing. Reviewed in Public Understanding of Science, Isis: Journal of the History of Science Society, L'Anthropologie, and Perspectives on Science and Christian Faith.
Cremo, M. A., and Thompson, R. L. (1994) The Hidden History of the Human Race. Badger: Govardhan Hill. Popular edition of Forbidden Archeology. (Spanish, Italian, Japanese, Korean, Hungarian, Polish, Czech, and Russian rights sold, other translation rights under negotiation). Reviewed in Creation Research Society Quarterly.
Cremo, M. A., and Thompson, R. L. (1993) Forbidden Archeology. San Diego: Bhaktivedanta Institute (reviews and notices in American Journal of Physical Anthropology, Geoarcheology, Journal of Field Archeology, Antiquity, Journal of Unconventional History, L'Homme, L'Anthropologie, British Journal for the History of Science, Social Studies of Science, and Ethology, Ecology, and Evolution). Translated into German as Verbotene Archaeologie (1994) Essen:Bettendorf.
plus many papers and lectures.
http://www.mcremo.com/cremo.htm
I can't say which, if any are good, but I'm sure Scott will be able to give us the lowdown.
Mostly Harmless |
Cromagnon
bear cub
Username: Cromagnon
Post Number: 5
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 01, 2004 - 9:24 pm: | |
Am I the only one still eagerly anticipating The Scott's answer to the reference request here? I know being a deity is busy work but please I want to hear your response.
cro |
Rhi
storyteller
Username: Rhi
Post Number: 235
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 02, 2004 - 3:25 am: | |
No, Cro, we await all of THE Scott's posts with much anticipation. Even me, his baby sister.
Mostly Harmless |
Scott
storyteller
Username: Scott
Post Number: 608
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 02, 2004 - 6:58 am: | |
Sorry guys. I had forgotten about this completely - sheesh - I have obviously been preoccupied. I will post a few refs tomorrow - Cremo is not widely published, but he has some stuff out there and his co-author is of course a noted mathematician and physicist and is more widely published, though not in archaeology peer-review.
Thanks for the head's up!
Cro - how is your schedule tues/wed next week?
Scott
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Ces gens, Jondalar, ils sourient. Ils me sourient. - Ayla |
Cromagnon
bear cub
Username: Cromagnon
Post Number: 6
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 02, 2004 - 1:56 pm: | |
Schedule is open next week. You let me know what's good for you and I will be there.
cro |
Sweetsunray
hunter
Username: Sweetsunray
Post Number: 335
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 10:18 pm: | |
http://human-nature.com/nibbs/03/brass.html
Discusses Michael Brass' book... I used to visit Michael Brass' website and comments when I researched whatever I could find on Atlantis in the HZ once (that thread got lost, and so did I lose the links to his site)...
Anyway... "In The Antiquity of Man Michael Brass refers to Forbidden Archaeology (1993), and The Hidden History of Human Race (1999), two volumes written by the Hindu creationists Michael A. Cremo and Richard L. Thompson. These voluminous books, which have met with some remarkable public success and notoriety, depict what the authors claim to be ‘anomalous archaeological artefacts’. Like the first creationists, who tried to accommodate science to the Bible, Cremo and Thompson dismiss evolution and strive to harmonize science with the sacred Vedic scriptures. These indicate that men and women have lived on earth, in their current forms, for a period of time dating back to several million years ago."
And his site used to be filled with loads of debunkers of 'anomalies'... Many supposed anomalies have been cleared long ago, so long ago that creationist writers or other pseudo scientists always and only use the reporting of the find and ignore the debunking of the anomaly. Michael Brass is good in digging up those forgotten and ignored answers.
Everyone has a motive for giving arguments. But only the arguments given matter. |
Sidescraper_gal
hunter
Username: Sidescraper_gal
Post Number: 261
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 08, 2004 - 1:58 am: | |
Seetsunray:
I "know" Mikey Brass. He is a member of my Palanthsci Yahoogroup, and I'm a member of his Paleoanthro Yahoogroup and we both battle against creationists and other pseudoscientists. No, I'm not accusing anyone here of being a pseudoscientist or creationist. But he is pretty hard on Cremo.
Anne G |
Sweetsunray
hunter
Username: Sweetsunray
Post Number: 338
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 09, 2004 - 9:57 pm: | |
Never read Cremo... but does he in any way suggest a lost Lemuria? If he does, I can understand why Mikey's hard on him.
It's sad his site's link are not all working again. Whenever an archeological anomaly comes up, his feedback on it is what I'm hutning for on the internet. The main reason though why I appreciate him so much is that he 'backs it up with rational and calm arguments whenever he deems something "garbage!"' Unlike what you have done here Anne, Mikey does not dismiss all creationists writers simply because they are creationists, but because he dismisses their arguments one-by-one by finding out the facts and present them.
As I said in my analogy... to refute the bible, you must know the bible. To refute Cremo, you must know his arguments and refute his arguments, not just refute Cremo himself.
Everyone has a motive for giving arguments. But only the arguments given matter. |
Scott
storyteller
Username: Scott
Post Number: 620
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 12, 2004 - 5:05 am: | |
Sorry for the delay Sidescraper gal.
quote:Exactly what mainstream work are you talking about? ? posted by Anne G
Cremo is not a titled archaeologist. No one is claiming this, least of all him. However, he has written a very interesting book on archaeology from a historian''s perspective. He lists up a lot of unexplained stuff, stuff that mainstream archaeology simply dismisses. Granted, a lot of it has been satisfactorily rebutted, but not all. Some the issues are just junk. I am not disputing that. But, the archaeological community has been guilty of dismissing out of hand many crucial finds and evidence in the past it is almost a past-time.
Below are some mainstream works that he has either written, presented or been cited in. Take your pick. If he was a complete nut case, he wouldn't get the press, outside of his own self-publishing efforts.
He has been invited to speak by the following (among others) groups. They are not all creationist propaganda machines.
History of Science Society
The Philosophy of Science Association
The World Archaeological Congress
European Association of Archaeologists
Hodder cites him enthusiastically here:
Ian Hodder. Always momentary, fluid, and flexible: toward a reflexive excavation methodology. Antiquity 71 (1997): 691-700.
One of his most recent mainstream papers is included in the following anthology:
1999 "Puranic Time and the Archaeological Record" In Time and Archaeology, ed. by Tim Murray, pp.8-27. New York: Routledge.
Cremo himself states:
quote:My empirical results, as defined above, can be found in my book Forbidden Archeology. They can also be found in the papers I have presented at professional archeological conferences. For example, you can see my chapter in Time and Archeology, a peer reviewed conference proceedings volume edited by archeologist Tim Murray, and published last year by Routledge (London). The chapter was orginally presented at the World Archeological Congress. The paper I presented at the XXth International Congress of History of Science was also selected for publication in a peer-reviewed conference proceedings volume (forthcoming) and the paper I presented last year at the European Association of Archeologists annual meeting is coming out in a peer-reviewed conference proceedings volume to be published by British Archeological Reports. I was also invited earlier this year to lecture for the Royal Institution of Great Britain, one of the old, established scientific societies in England.
And for an annotated list of papers presented by Cremo see:
Cremo, Michael. A. (1995) "The Reception of Forbidden Archeology: An Encounter Between Western Science and a Non-Western Perspective on Human Antiquity." Kentucky State University Institute for Liberal Studies Sixth Annual Interdisciplinary Conference: Science and Culture.
Cremo, Michael A. (1997) "The Later Discoveries of Boucher de Perthes at Moulin Quignon and Their Bearing on the Moulin Quignon Jaw Controversy" XXth International Congress of History of Science, Li?ge, Belgium.
Cremo, Michael A. (1999) "Forbidden Archeology of the Early and Middle Pleistocene: Evidence for Physiologically and Culturally Advanced Humans." World Archaeological Congress 4, Capetown, South Africa, January 8-14, 1999.
Cremo, Michael A. (1999) "Forbidden Archeology of the Paleolithic: How Pithecanthropus Influenced the Treatment of Evidence for Extreme Human Antiquity" Presented at the "History of Archeology Session" at the European Association of Archaeologists Conference, Bournemouth, UK, September 15-18, 1999.
Cremo, Michael A. (2000) "The Discoveries of Carlos Ribeiro: A Controversial Episode in Nineteenth Century European Archeology" Presented at the "History of Archeology" session of the European Association of Archeologists Annual Meeting, September 11-15, 2000, Lisbon, Portugal.
Cremo, M.A. (2001) Paleobotanical Anomalies Bearing on the Age of the Salt Range Formation of Pakistan: A Historical Survey of an Unresolved Scientific Controversy. Presented at XXIst International Congress of History of Science, Mexico City, July 8-14, 2001.
Cremo, M. A. (2001) The Discoveries of Belgian Geologist Aim? Louis Rutot at Boncelles, Belgium: An Archeological Controversy from the Early Twentieth Century. XXIVth Congress of the International Union of Prehistoric and Protohistoric Sciences, Li?ge, Belgium, September 2-8, 2001.
Cremo, M. A. (2003) "The Nineteenth Century California Gold Mine Discoveries: Archeology, Darwinism, and Evidence for Extreme Human Antiquity." World Archaeological Congress 5, June 21-26, 2003 Washington, D.C.
Scott
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Ces gens, Jondalar, ils sourient. Ils me sourient. - Ayla |
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